Opinion of the hard lefty laborites who are upper middle class or better

[DC Al Fine]

I'll refrain from being a dick and talking about "not voting their interests". They have their opinions and should stick to them.

I prefer an honest labourite like TNF (not sure how rich he is) to the kind of snobbish latte liberalism that can be found in the upper middle class. Talking about union power just bugs me less than the endless talk about gun control or foreign aid.

[DC Al Fine]

FFs for having at least an ounce of compassion for the truly doomed amongst us.

Good show, fellow D-NJ.  Yes, I came from a middle class background where to say I "struggled" would be a stretch, indeed.  Nevertheless,

-I went to college in a truly desperate and ruined city in Camden, NJ.  When you meet some of the locals, talk to them, and see the school their children go to, the whole notion of the universally achievable, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps "American Dream" kind of goes out the window.  

-I come from a divorced family where my mother went from stay-at-home to a union job with the USPS.  Having met most of her coworkers and heard their stories about dealing with management and whatnot, I tend to universally side with the worker.  A vast majority, if not all, are just hard workers looking to make a living against an economic system that is becoming increasingly unworkable for them.  

And between my fraternity and some of my dad's more well-to-do friends in PA, it's not like I haven't been exposed to the other side.  And the conservative economic arguments about taxes, takers/makers, etc. and their reactionary tendencies (I don't know how many times I have to hear the argument that isolated instances of someone abusing social security or welfare means the whole thing has to be dismantled)... nope, just don't buy it, and I find a lot of right-wing proposals borderline barbaric and offensive.  

What are some of the things you heard of?

Being the son of a public school teacher in  moderately conservative East Hillsbourough to very Conservative Wyoming, I can say I have heard my share. Generally these "modest proposals" include-

-Laws mandating that judges order the bailiff to pointblank execute the defendant in court upon conviction of murder, rape and selling drugs, even pot.
-Laws mandating that people who are found commiting homosexual behavior or giving or recieving abortions or sex for money must have rocks thrown at them.
- That any country that is suspected of nuclear enrichment that doesn't have good relations with us be sterilized with ICBMs.
-That all Federal Land should be strip mined and that there should be a "Buffalo Hunt" of all natural predators larger than a house cat.
-That anyone approaching the Southern US border where there is not a border crossing should be shot on sight.
- That anyone who isn't in this country illegally should be deported on large cattle trains that come into town take everyone.
- That there be no more research or education in Evolutionary Biology.
- That starvation is  justice for not having a job regardless of the situation.  


Basically a bizzare mixture of 2013 Suadi Arabia and 1940 Germany.

So basically you've been hanging out with a bunch Opebos of the right.

[DC Al Fine]

It's not about how they were brought up, it's about what they choose to do with what they have earned/inherited. If they still choose to live like Richie McRich or Posho McToff, they're godawful hypocrites. If they give their huge surplus of money away, to charity, or control their own consumption or openly agree with raising their own tax band. Some avoid tax, and this is again deplorably hypocritical.

Those who avoid taxes are hypocritical pieces of sh*t who absolutely don't belong in the left, obviously. Conspicuous consumption is pretty horrible and somewhat hypocritical as well. However, no one is obliged to give to charities. Private charity has absolutely nothing to do with public solidarity.

Obviously. Most charities are either way for plutocrats to avoid paying their fair share of taxes/intricate scams or money making operations. Take for example the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, a 'charity' that allows the Gates family to dodge taxation while using the money flowing into it to bust teachers' unions and advocate on behalf of education 'reform', all the while getting a tax write-off for it.

I would go so far as to say that most charities are scams, but most of the larger ones have way too much overhead and a extremely inefficient. I'm sure there are good groups to give your money to in your community, but they tend to be small and go unnoticed because they don't spend half their budget on advertising.

[DC Al Fine]

I was actually going to post something in reply on "YDBT", but I didn't want to go off topic, though you you've mentioned it.
Obama didn't say nobody builds a business on their own, he said one can't build a business without "foundation" infrastructure society provides.
You both seem to be assuming a dogmatic anacho-capitalism on the part of others. Well, I'm nothing of the sort.  Even Elizabeth Warren says rich people should be able to keep a "Big Hunk" (stupid phrase i take to mean at least 50%) of what they earn.

Indeed. For all the criticism of right wing businessmen, they usually believe the government should provide roads, education etc.

EDIT: Remember, profit maximization is the name of the game here. Anarchy is bad for business.