In New Hampshire, transgender 3rd grader is now allowed to go to school as girl

[Spanish Moss]

How did it get their parents to pay for the sex change?

What is the "it" you're referring to?

And transgender is an umbrella term - anyone who isn't gender normative, to put it simply.  You could be gender androgynous ("in the middle" with genders), genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer explains it), etc - doesn't necessarily mean transsexual.  Transsexual is very specific - where one's gender identity is specifically opposite that of their biological gender, it's under that transgender umbrella - and those are the individuals that typically get a sex change.

[Spanish Moss]

The bigotry in here is alarming - "I weep your downfall", "disgusting" - if this were equivalently about another minority, blacks, gays, etc somehow that would be less acceptable.  Now that it's becoming more and more unacceptable to be anti-gay (though there's still a LONG way to go), trans individuals are the last group it's okay to openly have a problem with and not be identified as promoting a bigoted viewpoint.

That is what is disgusting, if not morally criminal.

[Spanish Moss]

I don't really "get" the whole trans thing, but I don't see the big deal if one 3rd grader out of the millions out there feels the need to dress in the style that society has arbitrarily assigned to females.

It's almost always a matter of more than crossdressing, the fact that they are not the opposite sex is something that causes them emotional strife and - if they truly are transgender - sticks with them throughout puberty and beyond.  There are scientific theories for this (and it is called "gender dysphoria"), but it is as much of a choice as being gay (that is to say, it's not a choice).  I have numerous transsexual friends, and if you actually talk to any of them you'll find it's far more than just dressing in something as not-gender normative as dictated by culture.

[Spanish Moss]

I feel bad for transgender people when they get incorrectly lumped in with the whole gay/lesbian set far too quickly -- and far too inaccurately. Being gay is about what gender of person you fall in love with and otherwise desire sexually. That doesn't really factor in when you're 3 or 4 years old. But when you're transgender, there's something different -- a deep down seated feeling that you're not actually born as the correct gender. And it's not just psychological. There's a physical component too.

I wouldn't go around saying transgender kids should be getting sex change operations -- that can wait until after the chemical spigots get shut down post-puberty. But those poor kids know something is wrong. It does no one any favors to pretend otherwise.

Most trans individuals also hate being lumped in - ask a trans person if they'd rather the "t" in lgbt be its own movement, and 9 out of 10 will say yes.  Not only does it mislead those who don't really understand (which is most people, because society rarely addresses it) into thinking it's sexual, the glb throws the t under the bus whenever convenient for the movement.  Many trans people are quite frustrated by both these facts.

Pre-pubescent kids don't get sex change operations, there's a general policy of at least waiting until the first signs of puberty setting in to medically address it at all - and at that point, they only start giving hormone treatment.  I don't even think it's legal to give someone under 18 a sex change operation in the United States.

[Spanish Moss]

While I personal prefer to teach children to conform (and let them choose to be different when they become adults), I think this is a interesting experiment. I don't like the ideological part of it, but practical this will teach us a lot about gender roles and whether tolerance can really taught so early (let us all hope it can, if not this kid is going to go through hell).

"Teaching children to conform" often causes a great deal of emotional strife for them.

[Spanish Moss]

And in case you're wondering, no, I'm not transsexual - but if I were, I'd be very open about the fact (and proud).  But I do have quite a few trans friends, I'm aware of and have personally seen the vitriol toward these individuals, and it irks me.

And yes, there are posts in this thread (earlier on) which are purely bigoted, and if the moderators want to be consistent about not allowing bigoted statements, will do something about that fact.

[Spanish Moss]

And yes, there are posts in this thread (earlier on) which are purely bigoted, and if the moderators want to be consistent about not allowing bigoted statements, will do something about that fact.

Any mod responses?

[Spanish Moss]

Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

Crossdressing is a problem?

[Spanish Moss]

The bigotry in here is alarming - "I weep your downfall", "disgusting" - if this were equivalently about another minority, blacks, gays, etc somehow that would be less acceptable.  Now that it's becoming more and more unacceptable to be anti-gay (though there's still a LONG way to go), trans individuals are the last group it's okay to openly have a problem with and not be identified as promoting a bigoted viewpoint.

That is what is disgusting, if not morally criminal.

it is not in any way equivalent to being black, how could it be? nobody is denying that a black man is black (well probably..). it's not equivalent to liking the same sex either, that's just attraction as has been pointed out. many, many dysphorics identify as "straight" anyway. it's a completely different situation because the exterior does not match the interior and there are just no easy solutions when it comes to treating that.

That doesn't somehow make it less bigoted or ignorant.

[Spanish Moss]

Gender indentity disorder (GID) is real. This has nothing to do with homosexuality or the politics surrounding it, no more than ADD or OCD should. This child should be studied and, if possible, treated.

What do you mean by "treated"?  If you mean medicated to not be trans, I'd like to remind you that it wasn't that long ago homosexuality was in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and was viewed as something wrong and a mental disorder for which a treatment needs to be found.

If you are actually asserting this child "isn't right in the head" (you may not word it that way) and needs treatment to be "normal" (again, you may not word it that way), what you say is degrading and entirely offensive at best.

[Spanish Moss]

Which at that point, would indicate far more serious problems than crossdressing.

Crossdressing is a problem?

Depending on the context. As a mere hobby? I wouldn't think so. On the other hand, Gender Identity Disorder....well...I would think very few people willingly choose to be transsexual or anything.

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

[Spanish Moss]

So if they're transsexual and it is a problem, you're clearly implying that being transsexual is a problem.

Yes. And? Even if we lived in a perfectly tolerant society in every single possible way, being transsexual is an undesirable outcome. Because we don't have magic that can randomly make people swap genders.

Uh, sexual reassignment surgery?

[Spanish Moss]

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.

[Spanish Moss]

Is not a panacea. Sex has much greater of a biological basis than merely having a penis, vagina, or certain hormones. The day they can get someone who was born male pop out babies is the day I'll consider it as such. That day might actually come one day, and it would probably be a good thing, but it hasn't happened yet.

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

Your arguments are making less and less sense, and, in my interpretation, you seem only to be backpedaling on clearly inappropriate and transphobic statements.

[Spanish Moss]

So the entire basis is based on the ability of trans-women to have children?  What about women born infertile, are they, then, less of women?

In a way. It's certainly an extremely unfortunate outcome that severely damages their potential future relationships. Much like gender identity disorder.

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".

[Spanish Moss]

Physically and biologically, this is a boy. In gym class or when it's necessary to have fitness standards or if the genders are split up for something in health class, he should be on the "boy" side. I have nothing against him, but the reality is that he is male until he wishes to have gender reassignment surgery as an adult.

As a minor it makes virtually no difference, and those who start hormone treatment on the onset of puberty (when the sexes really begin to differentiate clearly) essentially develop as the opposite biological sex with the genitals being the only exception.  So I see no real basis in your argument.

that's a massive difference and things like estrogen have more wide reaching implications for your health than just permanent sterility. you know how many trans people have hair loss or incontinence or other horrifying side effects when they start treatment? i'm bi and i've been on anti depressants and other meds over the years. that has caused so many side effects for me i can't even imagine taking hormones at 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 years old while suffering from major body issues.

Well first, they don't take meds in the traditional sense - it's not like taking Paxil or Zoloft.  They take chemicals that naturally occur in human bodies - whether it be testosterone, or estrogen with a testosterone blocker.  It's not as if there's side effects that don't come naturally.

Yes, trans-men have hair loss - just as men naturally have hair loss.  Yes, trans-women become sterile - because of the lack of testosterone, these individuals are fully aware these things occur.  I've never heard of a single case of trans individuals having "side effects" in the traditional sense of what you consider medication, and if that's what makes them happy, I don't see what the problem is.  And the idea of "curing" them doesn't make them happy, it makes them angry and vindictive because to insinuate such a thing is degrading - they aren't ashamed of who they are, they just want to be who they are.

I love (/sarcasm) how cisgendered people love to put their two cents in as if they have the right to try and get involved with or influence the life of a trans individual without their consent, minor or adult.  It's absurd.

[Spanish Moss]

Do you know any transsexuals?  I know quite a few, none of them are single.  Not one, trans-female, or trans-male.  Per capita, I know far more cisgendered individuals.  Your argument there holds no weight.

And any trans person would find you calling it "gender identity disorder" condescending and degrading, it's "gender dysphoria".

I doubt any of them have children either. Point still stands.

Oh well. I bet there are people who want me to use the term handicapable too, but I'm not convinced.

Adopted, yes.  And there are numerous trans-women who are attracted to women, who get sperm frozen prior to going on estrogen, who have biological children after going on hormone treatment.  So... doubt all you like, it happens.  And considering the Earth's carrying capacity goes down by a decent number each day while the population goes up, it'd be far better for the Earth and the human race if people stopped producing new people.  One of the primary reasons I never intend to produce any biological children of my own.

But staying on topic - they aren't "handicapped" so "handicapable" is an atrocious and bigoted analogy.  The only thing that's handicapped, as far as trans individuals go, is society - seeing as it is so blatantly and cruelly transphobic, forcing these people to deal with bigoted nonsense.  It's on society to grow up.

[Spanish Moss]

what it boils down to is, are you okay with someone removing their genitals or permanently altering their body in potentially grotesque ways because they have issues with what their bodies naturally look like?

Yes, and even if I wasn't, it isn't my place to be "okay" or "not okay" with it.  So who do you think you are that you're in some high and mighty position to take a stand against who these people are and what they want?

Not to mention, people born hermaphroditic get surgery on their genitals, I don't see any complaints on that.

what if it was something else body related? what about people with racial self hate issues or the other kin crowd or something like that?

Again, it's not my, or your, place to go taking a stance on that.  But if I had to, I'd first love to hear of an example of "racial dysphoria" that isn't a result of simply being treated like crap for being a minority and feeling like being another race because it's easier.  But don't bother looking it up if there is - because I don't care.  Like I said, it's not my place to go taking a stand on it.

where do you draw the line? is it even appropriate to treat it 100% like a choice to get surgery given that a lot of people have the overwhelming urge to (obviously not all do want hormones or surgery but still)?

You DON'T draw a line - IT'S NOT YOUR BUSINESS!!!

cross dressing is one thing and blockers might be a pragmatic necessity given how frequently these kids suicide

Because of:

A) People like you.
B) People even more cruel who constantly taunt, or even beat them - or parents who disown them.  And you're feeding into that culture, even if you don't do those things, so congradulations.  The fact that the mods aren't stepping in on all the nonsense on this thread only says to me that they aren't doing their job.  This is absurd.

 

but once you get into irreversible body modification, yes i am uncomfortable.

And not a single trans individual gives a damn if you're uncomfortable.

[Spanish Moss]

The fact that the mods have done nothing relevant in terms of reacting to the clear transphobia here is not only apalling, I've not posted here in a while because of it, and may leave altogether (which isn't some kind of threat, because those of you who should be suspended if not banned would likely love to see me go).  But it shows that despite all the supposed moderation around here, the moderators aren't doing their job.  This is absolutely absurd.

[Spanish Moss]

The fact that the mods have done nothing relevant in terms of reacting to the clear transphobia here is not only apalling, I've not posted here in a while because of it, and may leave altogether (which isn't some kind of threat, because those of you who should be suspended if not banned would likely love to see me go).  But it shows that despite all the supposed moderation around here, the moderators aren't doing their job.  This is absolutely absurd.

For the record I raised it with my fellow mods. No infractions were given (The 'disgusting' comment was not infracted due to 'freedom of speech') which I said wasn't really a satisfactory response. To my knowledge nothing has been done.

Well, then for the record I'd totally bake you brownies if I personally knew you (:-P) and give you a bunch of prop points as my now official favorite mod.

Saying "N**gers are fleet-footed criminals" is freedom of speech too, somehow I don't think that'd fly here (nor should it).

[Spanish Moss]

I'd like to hear the positions from all the mods themselves, considering there's no transarency over the fact that mods are blatantly selectively enforcing established rules, which makes them unfit for the position.