SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Lumine]

I'd rather not prop up a government that includes neo-nazis, thanks.

Sbovoda is far right party, not a neo-nazi one, and I'd rather save that government from Putin, thank you very much. Besides, Poroshenko is the new President, and I doubt he will include Sbovoda in his government.

Now, going into a more detailed subject, this Act is based in OTL with a bill the US Congress passed some weeks ago, which I then adapted to our context while removing unnecessary parts. Recovery the assets stolen by Yanukovych's government and pro-Russian officers is something I find crucial both as a symbolic gesture and to help the Ukrainian government regain more stability. The need for economic aid is far too evident, as Russia has tried to strangle Ukraine by pushing for major increases in energy prices, which Ukraine obviously can't pay when the most rich region is filled with Russian backed insurgents. Of course, for that aid to come Ukraine must committ itself to democracy (as they are doing right now), use a good part of the aid to help the Tatars who have suffered from the loss of Crimea and cease any possible discrimination against sexual minorities (which I believe was a big concern back ago).

The military aid is not going to be popular here, I know that, but if we want to see Ukraine have the necessary strength to defeat the insurgents in Donetsk and prove that they can stand up to aggression we will need to help them as much as we can. In my condition of Special Envoy I met with President Turnichov and I was allowed to see the progress of some of the anti-insurgency operations, and the Ukrainian military needs more resources and better training, hence the amount of money allocated ($500 million). I understand $9.5 billion is a big amount of money, but the European Union alone has spent twice as that in aid, and Japan alone has sent a similar amount of aid. It's costly, I know, but if we really want to solve this crisis while actually help the people of Ukraine instead of limiting ourselves to empty speeches, we have to help Ukraine, and I call for the Senate to consider this Act very carefully instead of dismissing it right away.

[Lumine]

Svoboda is a neo-Nazi party.

Any other thoughts on the bill, Senator? After all, discussing the ideology of a certain party is probably not the most important part here.

[Lumine]

As I'm thinking right now about foreign policy, for me the questions are, why us, and why this situation? I don't see it, presently, aside from the corruption problems and the nature of who we'd be supporting, as noted by others.

Why not us? It's always nice to save a democratic country from Novorossiyism.

Precisely, and I thank the Senator for that comment.

First, we have a commitment to Ukraine in light of the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, in which we have stated that we respect Ukraine's borders and refrain from using economic pressure on them to influence politics (among other issues regarding their nuclear arsenal). Russia has repeatedly ignored those terms over and over again, and you might say our credibility is on the line here. Second, I feel Russia is a state that should be confronted over multiple aggressions and breaches of international law like what we have seen in Chechnya, Georgia and now in Ukraine, and the fact remains that our country has the capability to do so. The European Union and other nations like Japan have helped Ukraine as much as they can, but our intervention or the lack of it is what will prove decisive here. It's clear now that China won't stand on the way of the Russians, and once again, France and the United Kingdom can't do it alone. Third, Ukraine is a potential ally and a state that desires to enter the EU and to enjoy from a stronger relationship with our nation (as I confirmed with President Turnichov), the Senate itself passed an Act supporting Ukraine (even if the language was toned down) and the SoEA and by extension the administration have supported Ukraine as well.

Ukraine needs the help to overcome the economical and military difficulties unless we want to see that nation torn by civil war and Russian supremacy, and I believe we have to step in and help them as much as we can. Words alone are not enough in diplomacy, and much less in this world so filled with empty speeches, I feel we need actions.

If there are responsible NGOs then I can approve supporting them, but Ukraine's government has had a systemic corruption problem, which we aren't going to fix by giving them money. Tatar-language schools and anti-discrimination laws don't really address this problem.

I acknowledge that as a potential problem, just as I acknowledge Superique's ideas over human rights. I am willing to trust President Poroshenko, but I wouldn't mind amending this bill to include some restrictions if his government is not committed to Democracy, the rule of law and the respect for minorities, and to include a responsible NGO as well if the Senate is interested in that possibility.

Any suggestions for the indicated organism?

[Lumine]

Why is it our job to help the Ukrainian government? Why can't we just mind our own business and focus on the real issues we have at home? (an economy dominated by non-working parasites)

We don't have to play world police, and we shouldn't. Senator Lumine's drive to transform Atlasia into a global policeman is backwards and insane. We've seen how that works out in real life. Let's bring all the troops home and send them to Wall Street, where they're actually needed.

Perhaps because we're the only ones who can make the difference here?

I'm not advocating to play world police and send our troops there and then liberate Mars, Jupiter and god knows which place, I'm advocating for certain types of aid. "Mind our own business" sounds nice as the typical political sound bite, but every single time that phrase has been uttered it becomes an excuse for isolationalism, which as we have seen during the past century only leads to worse problems.

I don't wish to get off topic, but last time I checked capitalism was working very well (better than other systems I've seen), so I really fail to see the need to mock the ongoing debate by shifting discussion to the economic system.

[Lumine]

Ah what, Alfred?

Generally I favor minimizing entanglements but then part of me says sometimes you can minimize future entanglements with some involvement now, so it is a tough one for me.

I would honestly advice to act now with the aid, if the Ukrainian government sees the economy collapse and the Donetsk rebels are able to gather enough strength (which is more plausible than probable) then we will see a far uglier scenario that we could probably avoid by helping Ukraine (while making clear that said aid comes with conditions, as Superique, Shua and others pointed out).

[Lumine]

What about the third party/NGO involvement? Do we need an amendment for that?

Certainly. I'm trying to draft one right now, but I'm still struggling with finding the right third party (one that would be both trustworthy and acceptable to the Senate). Any suggestions?

[Lumine]

Superique has the right idea as far as what we want to be legislating. 

However, $9 billion is a lot of money.  What are we trying to do that is so expensive?

Indeed, the reason why I chose such a large sum was that the Ukrainian economy almost suffered a crippling blow with all of this. The loss of Crimea and Sebastopol is already a heavy loss, and we have to remember that as long as Donetsk suffers the attack of Russian-backer insurgents and terrorists then that region can't be productive (and it is the single most productive one). Even more, the energy war Russia declared forced Ukraine to spend increasingly large amounts of money to keep the oil flowing. I chose $9 billions by comparing to what other countries have sent, as a Japan sent $10 billion or so and the European Union has sent two or three times that sum.

Since this is directed as a long term effort to protect and help Ukraine, I figured a large amount made more sense than $1 or $2 billions, which would be more symbolic than effective given the expenses.

[Lumine]

What an objective source without any possible ulterior motives.

Says the man who praises Venezuela and uses government sources to base such undeserved praise. I'm not a fan of ad-hominem attacks, but the irony here is quite noteworthy.

[Lumine]

Was it Lumine or Superique that suggested a panel to determine the dsitribution of the money?

Superique did, and I'm currently writing a simple amendment to address that. It will be up in a few minutes!

[Lumine]

I essentially used Superique's language in previous posts at it seemed reasonable to me:

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[Lumine]

You offering that now or just sampling opinions at present?

Formal amendment!

[Lumine]

I do consider some parts of it reasonable (like restricting anti-semitic and/or xenophobic views), but cutting the aid in half and eliminating the military section would, in my view, weaken the overall purpose of the act (which is also set to deal with the whole Donetsk situation). Amendment hostile.

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Lumine]

And I will declare it hostile. I insist that we need the military aid, and I don't see the point of cutting the economical aid in half. Furthermore, why getting rid of Sections 2.1.2 and Section 5?

[Lumine]

Nay, and the next amendment is hostile as well.

[Lumine]

This is just an absurd. We cannot require them to ban the "Right Sector". We can ask them not to include their leaders in government roles but we cannot ask them to destroy an organization.

We did it during the Cold War, as a condition of Marshall Plan aid.

I'm not in the Cold War anymore....

Better give Lumine the heads up on that one.

Hey, I'm not the one advocating for the ideology who lost, xD

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Lumine]

It might seem I'm almost ready with this one, but may I see the current text, please?

[Lumine]

Why did TNF's amendment fail so badly? Section 1 of this bill is totally ridiculous. Why would we ever spend money tracking down the stolen assets of a corrupt Ukrainian leader when there are far more corrupt governments all over the world?  Why are we trying to micromanage Ukraine's economy when there are much poorer countries all over the world? I mean, really, what need is there to spend taxpayer money "diversifying Ukrainian trade?" Where is this money coming from anyway?

Oh, boy, it seems we're going to have a lot of disagreements should you get elected, Deus, xD

If you wish to track down other corrupt governments and help other poor countries I invite you to write a bill regarding that issue, but in this moment my concern is Ukraine due to the geopolitical and strategical situation and because I believe it's important to contain Russia and prevent them from taking over the country (we did committ ourselves to defend their integrity in the 1990's after all). This money is coming from our budget, and I certainly don't feel the need to point out exactly where it comes from. I am very concerned about our budget, truly, and once that discussion arrives I'll work hard to make sure this is not an extra burden for the government. But I am more than willing to spend our money in the foreign stage in order to achieve results, and right now I am interested in achieving positive results in Ukraine. Leaving things alone so they can sort out the issue themselves is a poor choice to take, I believe, specially when our intervention could help that nation.

[Lumine]

Why did TNF's amendment fail so badly? Section 1 of this bill is totally ridiculous. Why would we ever spend money tracking down the stolen assets of a corrupt Ukrainian leader when there are far more corrupt governments all over the world?  Why are we trying to micromanage Ukraine's economy when there are much poorer countries all over the world? I mean, really, what need is there to spend taxpayer money "diversifying Ukrainian trade?" Where is this money coming from anyway?

Oh, boy, it seems we're going to have a lot of disagreements should you get elected, Deus, xD

If you wish to track down other corrupt governments and help other poor countries I invite you to write a bill regarding that issue, but in this moment my concern is Ukraine due to the geopolitical and strategical situation and because I believe it's important to contain Russia and prevent them from taking over the country (we did committ ourselves to defend their integrity in the 1990's after all). This money is coming from our budget, and I certainly don't feel the need to point out exactly where it comes from. I am very concerned about our budget, truly, and once that discussion arrives I'll work hard to make sure this is not an extra burden for the government. But I am more than willing to spend our money in the foreign stage in order to achieve results, and right now I am interested in achieving positive results in Ukraine. Leaving things alone so they can sort out the issue themselves is a poor choice to take, I believe, specially when our intervention could help that nation.

What does tracking down Yanukovych's stolen goodies have to do with "containing Russia?" How can the money come from "our budget" when we don't have a budget surplus (or so I'm told)? If this bill is successful, we would need to borrow the money, and if we did we would have to use some sort of borrowing instrument (such as a Treasury bond). You need to decide what that is before you pass this bill. Also, what does "diversifying Ukrainian trade" have to do with "containing Russia" or "defending Ukrainian integrity?"

Tracking down the stolen assets serves to help the current Ukrainian government with their work, and I am convinced it's a good idea to lend them our help in that issue. Diversifying Ukrainian trade is key here because they do depend a lot from Russia in certain economic matters (like oil and energy sources, which allows Russia to strangle their economy as they wish). It contains Russia by depriving them of a client and taking away from them the chance to weaken Ukraine in an economic war, as they have done for the past months.

Deus, please look around and try to be realistic here, there's not a single member of the Senate who makes the calculations. I agree with you in some levels, we should do it, and we should care about how much we're spending and in what kind of a mess we are right now on certain areas (see the Health Care debate), but we don't even have the required numbers yet to make such decisions or see what's going to happen. I am certainly not going to let that paralyze my foreign policy efforts, there's a lot to do, and the sums I am requesting are not as large as the ones other projects need (and less than what other nations have sent to Ukraine as well, I might add).

[Lumine]

Hostile, of course.

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Lumine]

Why are people voting Nay on this when the sponsor still has yet to explain why handing Ukraine taxpayer money to "diversify trade" is necessary or how it will even work?

Not to dimish the importance of what we're doing, Deus, but Atlasia does allow us to be less specific than in real life. This bill was born by adapting a piece of legislation from OTL America, which ironically had no explanation of what "diversify trade" meant. My understanding of it? The economy of Ukraine is currently suffering from being too centered around a few exportations with Russia being a major part of said market, which means that just like with the energy and gas prices they can strangle Ukraine economically. I have no intention in seeing Ukraine becoming an economic puppet in light of the weakened state of the economy, which is why I had the intention of providing some minor help to Ukraine in order to avoid that undesirable outcome. One could say people are quite opposed to anything that involves foreign spending lately, and I'm quite concerned about that.

EDIT: I removed a rather nonsensical phrase, sorry about that.

[Lumine]

Did everyone take a vacation yesterday? Seriously a few of these seem to have been left unposted in for two days or so.

I'm just waiting for the vote on the amendment to end to either propose a new amendment of just ask for a final vote, xD

[Lumine]

I can't believe this vote has gone on for so long, xD

Windjammer, we need you!