Texan Lynches Chair

[Donerail]

nothing the left ever does in protest equates to the ignorant vitriol that comes out of right wing movements.

Are you familiar with the ELF? The ALF? The Weathermen? James Chester Blanning? Carol Anne Burger?

[Donerail]

nothing the left ever does in protest equates to the ignorant vitriol that comes out of right wing movements.

Are you familiar with the ELF? The ALF? The Weathermen? James Chester Blanning? Carol Anne Burger?

Note that I said "Most (though not all) 'violent displays from left extremists' are usually instigated by the police"  You noted a handful, while many mass demonstrations where "the crowd got violent," if you were actually there or dig deeper than mainstream headlines, you find out were instigated by the authorities.

Of course there's very rare exceptions.  And though I oppose their tactics, what the ELF and ALF do isn't based on hatred and ignorant vitriol, their perspective is to make such activities - through their actions - not economically feasible to engage in any longer, therefore ending whatever practices they're seeking to end.  Sure, they use violence, but it's tactical - not ignorant vitriol reminiscent of the south in the 1950s.  I'm not saying that's better or worse - that's a different debate - I'm saying it's not nearly the same attitude and mentality that you're trying to connect them with.  So what you quoted of me saying having to do with the ELF and the ALF... I can't really see a connection there.

My point is that the ELF/ALF are about as representative of the left as the violent fringe elements of the Tea Party are of the right. The vast majority of members of both the left and right are sane, sensible people, and to try to tie the actions of a small fringe group to the aims and methods of the larger one is ludicrous. Whether it's saying that 'most leftists want to bomb SUV dealerships' or 'most Tea Party members want to lynch the President', it's equally inaccurate. The fringe nutjobs of the Weathermen are comparable to people like the Sikh temple shooter; the Tea Party itself, however, isn't comparable to violent groups but is comparable to a large political group (let's go with Moveon.org). Basically, you've got nutjobs on the far-left and nutjobs on the far-right, but the vast majority on both sides of the aisle aren't terrorists.

[Donerail]

nothing the left ever does in protest equates to the ignorant vitriol that comes out of right wing movements.

Are you familiar with the ELF? The ALF? The Weathermen? James Chester Blanning? Carol Anne Burger?

Note that I said "Most (though not all) 'violent displays from left extremists' are usually instigated by the police"  You noted a handful, while many mass demonstrations where "the crowd got violent," if you were actually there or dig deeper than mainstream headlines, you find out were instigated by the authorities.

Of course there's very rare exceptions.  And though I oppose their tactics, what the ELF and ALF do isn't based on hatred and ignorant vitriol, their perspective is to make such activities - through their actions - not economically feasible to engage in any longer, therefore ending whatever practices they're seeking to end.  Sure, they use violence, but it's tactical - not ignorant vitriol reminiscent of the south in the 1950s.  I'm not saying that's better or worse - that's a different debate - I'm saying it's not nearly the same attitude and mentality that you're trying to connect them with.  So what you quoted of me saying having to do with the ELF and the ALF... I can't really see a connection there.

My point is that the ELF/ALF are about as representative of the left as the violent fringe elements of the Tea Party are of the right. The vast majority of members of both the left and right are sane, sensible people, and to try to tie the actions of a small fringe group to the aims and methods of the larger one is ludicrous. Whether it's saying that 'most leftists want to bomb SUV dealerships' or 'most Tea Party members want to lynch the President', it's equally inaccurate. The fringe nutjobs of the Weathermen are comparable to people like the Sikh temple shooter; the Tea Party itself, however, isn't comparable to violent groups but is comparable to a large political group (let's go with Moveon.org). Basically, you've got nutjobs on the far-left and nutjobs on the far-right, but the vast majority on both sides of the aisle aren't terrorists.

I don't disagree: My point was this kind of mentality spawns from the vitriol and hatred that is common in the tea party.  I'm not saying stuff as extreme as wanting to harm anyone, but just the common, ignorant, racist, ethnocentric comments that come out of it and breed a culture where it becomes more acceptable for these super-fringe types (in their eyes) to act the way they do.

And my view is that a lot of the messages that the left can spit out can lead to them finding it acceptable for the ALF/ELF to act the way they do. Cuts both ways.

[Donerail]

My point is that the ELF/ALF are about as representative of the left as the violent fringe elements of the Tea Party are of the right.

Seriously?  You really believe that?  You must not have ever met any Americans, at least not in the Midwest or South.  Where are you?

Yes, I believe that neither violent faction clearly represents either political side. And I'm in the South.

[Donerail]

My point is that the ELF/ALF are about as representative of the left as the violent fringe elements of the Tea Party are of the right.

Seriously?  You really believe that?  You must not have ever met any Americans, at least not in the Midwest or South.  Where are you?

Yes, I believe that neither violent faction clearly represents either political side. And I'm in the South.

But I mean to compare the two is totally out of connection to reality - the violents on the right are an enormously greater percentage of that side, and if you count sympathizers, there is an even more pronounced difference compared to the left.

Things like ELF and ALF are just so few and rare as to be hardly worth speaking about, but the violent gun-owning angry and racist white male is a significant force in American society. 

Yes, the gun-owning angry racist white male is a significant force in American society, but the number of those who actually commit violent actions is not a significant amount, just as the ELF and ALF are very small.

[Donerail]

My point is that the ELF/ALF are about as representative of the left as the violent fringe elements of the Tea Party are of the right.

Seriously?  You really believe that?  You must not have ever met any Americans, at least not in the Midwest or South.  Where are you?

Yes, I believe that neither violent faction clearly represents either political side. And I'm in the South.

But I mean to compare the two is totally out of connection to reality - the violents on the right are an enormously greater percentage of that side, and if you count sympathizers, there is an even more pronounced difference compared to the left.

Things like ELF and ALF are just so few and rare as to be hardly worth speaking about, but the violent gun-owning angry and racist white male is a significant force in American society. 

I think a good visual representation of this would be people toting guns at Tea Party protests, while I'm not aware of a single case of that at Occupy (certainly if it did happen, that person would have been pepper sprayed and beaten beyond belief, but that's for another thread).

The difference being that the Tea Party tends to have a liberal stance on guns and would have events that would showcase gun owners carrying their guns to put a sort of positive light on gun ownership, while Occupy is not liberal on gun policy and tends to oppose guns.