Does an ethnic group have a right to a national homeland? (user search)
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  Does an ethnic group have a right to a national homeland? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Does an ethnic group have a right to a national homeland?  (Read 3158 times)
politicus
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« on: September 21, 2015, 03:09:14 PM »
« edited: September 21, 2015, 03:27:09 PM by politicus »

Does an ethnic group have a right to a national homeland? Do the people belonging to an ethnic group in possession of a nation state have the right to try to maintain a majority for their own group as part of its immigration and refugee policy?

Some of you seem to think that is illegitimate or immoral. For me those are fundamental rights.
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politicus
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 04:32:00 PM »

Does homeland necessarily mean nation-state?

No, sometimes an autonomous region or country in free association with a bigger one could suffice, but some kind of political control - and ideally a nationstate wherever practically possible, since that gives the most control.
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politicus
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 08:02:23 AM »
« Edited: September 22, 2015, 08:39:12 AM by politicus »


What a highly insightful comment. I am sure you will be a valuable addition to the forum.
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politicus
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 10:11:01 AM »

By arguing against the existence of ethnically based states (or autonomous areas) you are de facto saying that smaller ethnic groups should be destined to become minorities in every country on earth.
Easy position to take if you belong to a large and dominant culture, but deeply discriminatory. There is an inherent paradox in that by saying every ethnic group should be equal everywhere you are de facto discriminating the smaller ones. Anglophone Liberals and leftists always seem not to understand this.
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politicus
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM »
« Edited: September 22, 2015, 01:34:27 PM by politicus »

People have rights. Peoples do not have rights.

Why not? Would that apply for fx. Native American nations as well?

National self determination was recognized as a basic principle for the international community at Versailles and later played a significant role as legitimization in the decolonization proces.

(though not significant enough IMO, colonies being split more according to ethnic groups whereever practically possible would have been preferable to upholding colonial borders)
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politicus
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 01:20:07 PM »

Doesn't this "right" justify the sort of irredentism that is causing so much chaos in the Ukraine at the moment?

I think ethnic groups are entitled to have a "nation", but not a geographic state per se.

As previously said - autonomy works fine in many cases, but a nation without a designated homeland somewhere is vulnerable.

The right is to have a homeland, not necessarily for that homeland to incorporate every area where your group is in the majority. It is the second principle that causes problems.

Besides most Russians in Eastern Ukraine likely feel Russo-Ukrainian/Russophone Ukrainian rather than Russian. Ukraine is a complex case - with the Russian Federation interferring being the main problem.
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politicus
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 01:37:25 PM »


I think ethnic groups are entitled to have a "nation", but not a geographic state per se.

Give me a couple of examples of what you are thinking o (unless it is just regional autonomy, but we covered that already).
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politicus
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2015, 04:29:28 PM »

Need to do this in two, because the answer is too long. Please do not post in between. Thx.

Part I.

No ethnic group "deserves" anything. If an ethnic group can "deserve" a state, then you can also say an ethnic group "deserves" punishment for something.

Firstly, a national homeland does not equal a state, it can be a region with far reaching autonomy or part of a federation.

Secondly, it is a bizarre argument, one does in no way follow from the other. Saying that because an ethnic group or people has a rights it can also "deserve" something negative is incorrect. If I say the Greenlandic people deserves to have Greenland as a homeland, I have said nothing about any other collective responsibility or culpability (for what?). I have simply stated an opinion. Nations, peoples and cultures are not collectively responsible (only individuals and legal entities like companies, municipalities or states are responsible), but they still ought to have rights as they form the basis for most peoples identity (seen worldwide). The idea that you can not have rights without responsibility is moralistic mumbo-jumbo. It doesn't even make sense on the individual level, where basic human rights exists irrespective of whether are responsible for your actions and it makes even less sense when applied to cultures or ethnic groups.

If you want to make this point, you need to argue why? it is by no means self evident or logical.

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Once established ethnic groups are usually quite stable over time. Again, lets use Greenlanders as an example. Prior to the mid 19th century they had no common identity, but still recognized each other as related when they met. Once the creation of a common written language developed and interaction increased they came to see each other as a people inhabiting the same island, even while their are three rather distinct Inuit languages they continue to do so. This definition might be "arbitrary" since it might as well have been three peoples, but once established it is fairly stable and durable. Either an ethnicity is ancient (like the Japanese), or has ancient ties (like the Danish) or forged from different groups and consolidated after the establishment of written languages (many sub-Saharan ethnicities). Ethnicities are not some ever floating ever changing mass. It is generally quite easy to establish what ethnicity actual people identify with. So while this may sound like very important, it is empirically not, and it is not outsiders who divide, but the people who self identify as x or y.

(notice that I do not mean ethnicity in the superfluous "Italian-American" like definition, but entities that are central to peoples identity - deeper than national allegiance)

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Firstly, keep religion out of this.

Secondly. The important thing is what people want. Saying that people have a right to something does not equal that they should necessarily use that right. If I say the Welsh have the right to form a separate nation state, that doesn't mean that they have to split from the UK, or that a minority should be allowed to do it. Only that I recognize that right, and that if at some point people of Welsh stock became a minority in Wales, I would still argue a majority of them would have the right to establish a Welsh speaking autonomous area somewhere.

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Pure strawmaning. I am not arguing Australia, Brazil or Canada should be dissolved. Of course multiethnic and multicultural countries can exist and thrive. I am just arguing that people shouldn't be forced to live in them and that every ethnic group deserves somewhere were their culture and language is the dominant. The intolerance consists of the idea that multiculturalism should be universal, that we should have no choice.

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Very hyperbolic. Homo sapiens is a species, not a people. A national homeland can easily be a secular liberal democracy and respect human rights - incl. minority rights (most European countries fulfill those criteria).
Why would it be a defeat for multiculturalism that it can not be global? Being one succesful model of organizing human societies ought to be enough. Forcing everyone to live in multicultural societies makes multiculturalism unpopular. Why not give people a choice?

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Says who? Why not respect the will of the people. If they occupy a territory and wants to make it a state, why shouldn't they? (provided it can be done without infringing on the rights of others, but we are talking principles here).

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Wouldn't that be up to the people? You know, democracy?

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Why should all countries be alike? We already have those countries you describe, why force everyone to chose that model?

This is also very easy to say, when you belong to a large and dominant culture, but in reality it means small and vulnerable people have little protection of their culture. They are forced to be minorities in countries dominated by other cultures and languages and can not do anything to protect their own culture - like insists their language should be used by everyone. In your logic if 30.000 Danes immigrated to Greenland due to some mineral boom, we should just be allowed to reverse the promotion of Greenlandic as official language, even if their entire identity is connected to preserving the language (one of the hardest to learn in the world, so no immigrants use it).

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There isn't one path that a belief in the right to a homeland takes you. Nationalism can be harmful and taken to excess, but so can religion, atheism, individualism, Socialism, hedonism or any other set of beliefs. As previously said I think this connection with collective responsibility is illogical and quite frankly bogus.

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Why not? That would be the best way to secure their rights.
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politicus
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2015, 04:30:21 PM »

Part II.

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The co-existence of religions is different than co-existence of cultures/languages. It is possible to keep religion as a private and/or congregational matter - even desirable seen from a secularist view, whereas an ethnicity often needs control of a public apparatus (state, autonomy etc.) and dominance in the public sphere in order not to be assimilated or suppressed. If a language is relegated to a home language only to be used with family it generally lose out and dies, if a religion is relegated to the private sphere it can easily thrive as Judaism has for centuries in Denmark despite being a perpetual minority). If mores and ways of doing things are not the way the majority do them, the minority is often forced to adapt and give up. Even the influx of large foreign minorities force a nation to give up valuable traditions and fx adapt different and less negotiating and relaxed relations between authorities and citizens, a necessity of written agreements in cultures were "a word is a word" and less freedom in expressing sexuality for fear of being slutshamed or groped (to take some Danish examples, you are always closest to your own culture).
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(#) a religious minority can of course also need control of a state to have a safe haven - as the Jews are again a prime example of, but generally religions do not need homelands as much as peoples, also because most religions are shared by different cultures and peoples. Your colonial example deals with English people differing over ideology and tolerance, but still being English and acting within a broadly common cultural background, with a shared language and a shared legal tradition, despite their differences.
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politicus
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
« Edited: September 25, 2015, 11:34:11 PM by politicus »

Rights are a pretty dubious concept to begin with when applied to individuals (who gives you rights? Well, it is the State. Unless you continue to believe in 'natural rights' in which case I really can't help you). But as applied to collectivities? Who grants the state rights? Itself, of course, by its own power. But who grants rights to those without a defined state? Well..... that's your problem right.

Sure, but this was intended as a normative discussion. "Do you think an ethnic group should have the right to a national homeland?" or " Does an ethnic group have a moral right to a national homeland?"
States also often grant historical ethnic group rights. The US fx maintains Native American Nations that are supposed to act as homelands for specific ethnic groups (and do to a certain extent).

The other aspect is whether an ethnically defined state has the right to preserve its character as a national homeland. This is the element most often attacked as "illegitimate" or immoral by forum progressives of various ilks.
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