Dilemma of French Muslims

[politicus]

In principle: When the Catholic church is able to exist in France without becoming CINOs, so should Muslims. I know its not that simple, but part of the answer lays in a transition to a form of Euro-Islam. Unreformed Islam will inevitably collide with French secularism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Islam

[politicus]

I really don't see the difference for Muslim between living under a aggressive secular state like France or living in other European states, with their official or semi-official religion. For a Muslim for who the issue means a lot, it's just as bad to live in either states.

That really doesn't follow. All those other countries don't have the same policies or cultures that France does. An officially Protestant country with tepid treatment of public expression of other religions is most certainly not just as bad as an officially secular country with hostile treatment of public expression of almost any religion, especially if it's selectively deployed against religious minorities.

A country with an established church is not necessarily so bad for religious minorities. In Denmark Muslim private schools can get 75% of their expenses covered by the state under the free school legislation (provided they meet a certain standard and teach general subjects). That would be unthinkable in France (or the US for that matter). The fact that one denomination gets supported by the state tends to create pressure for other denominations to be supported as well (although on a much lower level). So it creates discrimination, but not suppression.

[politicus]

When grouping traditional Muslim female dress it should be burqa/niqab and hijab. The hijab is not destroying the individuality of the person in any way, whereas the two other clothings do. A woman wearing a hijab is still fully recognizable as an individual with facial expressions and mimic.

In general I think that passing laws about how women can and cannot dress should be presumed anti-feminist. Which obviously means that requiring hijab or niqab is also anti-feminist, indeed much more obviously so.

I would generally agree with that, but the niqab crosses a line - having the entire woman covered (and hidden) in cloth apart from her eyes is an unacceptable symbol of female submission, no matter how the women wearing it interpret it themselves.

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In a European context there are clear limits to how pluralistic society can realistically get. Any functioning compromise between immigrant cultures and the aboriginal European population must be mainly on the terms of the latter. Expecting full equality between different cultures is never gong to work in Europe with its well established ethnically based national cultures. Some things are "over the line" and the niqab is one of them.  

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Being from a former colony and an oppressed people shouldn't give you special rights in other parts of the world.

Even if you think it should, large parts of Europe played no role in colonialism. Other parts played a diminutive role. Should we then have different standards in Finland and France because the latter was a major colonial power and the former a colonized people themselves?

[politicus]

Personality on display


Personality disguised

[politicus]

These discussions about Islamic clothing for women can become pretty academic. Too often these discussions assume that women's clothing is in-itself a badge of shame and a consequence of patriarchy. It surely is when religious authorities or the police (or husbands or fathers, but that sadly is not limited to Muslims) force women to wear certain unwieldy styles out of doors, but even in Iran, total body drapes are not compulsory.

Muslim women shop for Islamic clothing just as well as they shop for any other article of clothing. Muslim women can express personality through more concealing wardrobes as well as through western clothing, it being no more an expression of patriarchy than buying clothes from J. C. Penney or Gucci.

However, the most conservative of styles, like niqab and this chador abaya, do merit the scorn that people in this thread have levied against Muslim clothing in general. Not only do they obliterate personality (which was their intention), they are genuine health and safety hazards as well.

There are more to it than just the Muslim women, there is also the question of how such disguised women affect society's view of women in general. Burqas and niqabs are very strong symbols of female submission no matter how they are interpreted by the persons wearing them.