Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

[politicus]

This guy is interesting. Wonder how much of a reformer he is.

[politicus]

You do understand that "reformer" means something totally different among the College of Cardinals than it means at the US Election Atlas Forum, right?  

Not quite sure what you are getting at here buddy.

Large part of my family is Catholic and I worked at a Jesuit school, so I know my way around the various factions in the Church - especially the reformist ones (which are of course dominant in Denmark).
 
The Atlas forum and its terminology is not a reference point of mine, dunno why you thought that.

Not as interesting as the Hitler Youth guy was.  

Benedikt was a bore in every possible way. A highly intellectual and intelligent bore, but they are the worst kind. Nothing remotely interesting about him.

[politicus]

Let me restate my position. 

About 15 years ago, I stumbled upon a really weird catholic mass in a rainforest in Guatemala.  It was near Iximché, which is an ancient Highland Maya temple site built in honor of the corn goddess.  Late Postclassic period, if you're into that sort of thing.  Anyway, I was hot and sweaty and broke, walking back toward my rented room on the shores of Lago Atitlan, where I had a dime bag and a bottle of Venezuelan rum waiting for me.  I came to a clearing in the forest and noticed all these folks speaking Quiche or Kaqchikel, and occassionally Spanish with a thick, lilting indigenous accent, and pouring out some alcohol or other local firewater on the ground.  They were burning large piles of corn and other crops to ask the corn goddess for a good yield.  All of it happened under the aegis of a formally robed priest.  I was aware that Rome allowed the local bishops a great deal of latitude in dealing with the indigenous populations, but that was the first time I'd witnessed it firsthand.  In later years, I'd notice something similar in the Andes.  "I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall have no other gods before me.  Well, ye shall have some other gods and goddesses from time to time as it is necessary to ensure peace and spread the Word, and ye shall allow the people to maintain their prior religions, so long as ye continue to try to teach them Spanish and baptize them."

Consider the tens of thousands of Jews who converted to Christianity in Italy and Austria during the late 1930s and early 1940s.  It turned out not to do them any good, but do you suppose that the priests asked if they really meant it?  Of course they didn't.  They didn't have to do any soul-searching to decide if it was right for them to try to save lives.  Or to make peace.  This is what priests do.  They don't need permission from Rome either.  Well, officially they do, but on a day-to-day level, priests do this every day. 

Let's consider what Francis actually said:  “Il Signore ha redento con il sangue di Cristo: tutti, non soltanto i cattolici. Tutti! ‘Padre, gli atei?’. Anche loro. Tutti!"

There you have it!  (FYI:  Tutti = everybody.  atei = atheists.)

So, yeah, it's like it says in the OP:  "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics.  Everyone!  ...even the atheists.  Everyone!"  This is not a controversial statement.  It's a bit informal, but it is a reasonable restatement of church dogma.  Note, importantly, that redento = redemption.  I suspect that there's some general ignorance in the public about the word redemption.  It does not mean the same thing as salvation.  He does not articulate the salvation of atheists.  Be clear on that.  Also, he goes on to say that "atei che fare il bene haberre redento."  Or something like this.  That is, atheists who do good will be "redeemed."  (It seems to me that the central message here is:  Tutti abbiamo il dovere di fare il bene.  So, all spin aside, he definitely did not say:  Tutti gli atei andranno in paradiso.)

Still, somewhere, right now, there's a grieving mother, an staunchly observant Catholic, who has lost an infant child who hasn't yet been baptized.  Maybe it was stillborn.  Maybe it died soon after its birth.  Does the priest tell her that the baby's soul will be lost forever in blackness and permanent death?  Of course not.  He tells her that the baby is now with its grandparents and with Jesus, and that it is not suffering.  The statement by Francis isn't a new idea.  It's what priests do every day. 

It's a good time to lament the fact that neither Supersoulty nor jmfcst post here any longer.  This thread could have evolved into a titanic debate between those two.  No matter.  Fare il bene. 

Also, Peace be with you. 

The Catholic church has a large body of good, decent priests. Its what keeps the church alive despite all the corruption, violations, bigotry and hypocrisy.
The refreshing thing about Francis is that this guy actually acts like a priest, not a scholar or a bureaucrat. This emphasis could potentially make him a reformer.
So its not that what he says is radical, its what he chooses to say and the way he says it that give some of us hope.

[politicus]

It's almost like saying that it's "fascinating" that Richard Nixon served in the U.S. military during World War II.

Don't kid yourself, man.  Nothing is as interesting as a Nazi pope.  Well, except maybe a Jewish pope.  I don't really see that happening, though.

Being in Hitler Jugend in 1941 was not a sign of Nazi symphaty, neither from him nor his parents.

Since March 25 1939 all boys in the age group were conscripted into the organization and parents were warned that their children would be taken from them and placed in orphanages unless they enrolled them in Hitler Jugend.

[politicus]

Large part of my family is Catholic and I worked at a Jesuit school, so I know my way around the various factions in the Church - especially the reformist ones (which are of course dominant in Denmark).

Most of my family was catholic too.  Got an uncle who's a priest.  He even smokes French cigarettes.  I also taught in a private school, albeit a Jewish one and not a Catholic one, but it was heavily attended religious scholars of all stripes.  Not sure that gives me (or you) any inside info on the workings of the Vatican.  Certainly it's nothing to brag about.  But what do I know, I haven't been to mass in 20 years, and only then on the occasion of my mother's requiem mass.

Certainly not bragging and obviously not claiming any inside knowledge about the Vatican, but you used a very condescending tone implying that I had no knowledge of the subject apart from what I got from this forum:

"Also, you do understand that "reformer" means something totally different among the College of Cardinals than it means at the US Election Atlas Forum, right?"  

So lose the arrogance and stop being so callous (as in saying "some Nazis are popular, just look at Schindler") or calling Benedict a "Hitler Youth Pope".