Consider that you are voting...

[patrick1]

PUP would be ideal as they're supposedly the only real leftist Protestant party, but from what I heard they're barely around anymore.

I'd probably vote strategically too depending on my constituency, basically try to wipe out anyone who belongs to the DUP or Sinn Fein and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating them if they were my MP. Both the DUP and Sinn Fein deserve nothing more than complete annihilation.

That is a rather strong opinion to have from Minnesota.  Have you actually ever been to the North?  The political realities in Northern Ireland are such that people feel compelled to vote for these parties because they both hold to firm principles and represent their community interests. 

The PUP, btw, was founded as a front for a terrorst organization.  I happen to like Ervine though because he has supported the working classes of both sides and is a political realist.

I support the goals, if not always the means, of Sinn Fein. 
Tiocfaidh ar la 

[patrick1]

Yeah, hating SF but supporting PUP isn't really a coherent opinion.

That is what happens when someone only has a superficial understanding of the history and politics.  You can't really decry the party of Adams and McGuinness and support the party that had the  the likes of guys like Gusty Spence and Michael Stone-(what Stone did was considered taboo even in the time of Homer's Illiad.)  Lenny Murphy deserves a mention as well.

[patrick1]

I don't like Sinn Fein because I'm Protestant and don't like the DUP because they're against the peace agreements and overall Paisley is just plain g nuts.

BRTD, I agree with you about Paisley but his "No Surrender" approach goes to the heart of the traditional Loyalist movement going back to Edward Carson and  further to the Plantations of Ulster.  Sinn Fein is not a sectarian organization in theory- it just is in reality because the Protestants of the North of Ireland reject the goals and wish to remain part of the UK.  Most Unionist parties especially D.U.P. make a point of stressing their Protestant identity. 

[patrick1]

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.

[patrick1]

Ah, one correction. Country Antrim was never "stolen and the land given to Protestant settlers". Although they themselves, some of them, don't like to hear it, most Presbyterians in Northern Ireland are as Irish as they come. (well, many of them do have relations in Scotland. People have been marrying to and fro across that channel since time immemorial.)

Nice try.  But that is duplicitous B.S.  I suppose I could say the same thing about Germany and France intermingling.  Yes the Scots were an Irish tribe  and there was always gene flow etc etc.  However,  the crown in order to get those pesky dissenters out of the hair confiscated Native Catolic Irish land and set up plantations for Scots Presbyterians.  Earlier settlement were established by Anglicans in the better farmlands of Western Ulster and Ireland at large.   The North/Ulster was always the traditional base of opposition to the English monarchy-  The strongest clan being the Ui Neill.  After their defeat in the rebellion of 1603 and the subsequent crown crackdown- the traditional Chieftains or Earls left Ireland for good. the monarchy was able to consolidate their power in the North and small Catholic freeholders were evicted.  I could go on ad nausineam but the fact remains that the land was confiscated and given to "loyal" Protestants. 

[patrick1]

Yes. And no. All you're saying is right. About five of these counties at least. There never was a planned settlement of Antrim County because it wasn't considered necessary, most of the population being protestant. This is not to say, of course, that no indivicual catholics were displaced etc. I bet they were.
As a result of this, though, by the early 19th century Antrim had the highest proportion of Catholic land ownership in Ireland (or maybe that was in ireland outside Connacht, don't nail me on that one) - about 25%, equalling their share of the population. While everywhere else, of course, the population was Catholic but the land was owned by absentee English protestants.
The Ui Niall / O'Neills were from Tyrone. They found their way into Christopher Marlowe's Edward II, btw.

Rhodesia wasn't really a government sponsored planting either... That does not mean that the theft and dispossession of Catholic landholders did not take place with the knowledge and support of the Crown.  History, of course, is never this cut and dry but for the sake of brevity one needs to make some generalizations.  This issue is close to my heart as some of my ancestors are from Armagh and Antrim (even a Scots derived surname;) but they were removed due to there republican activity.

Antrim is beautiful, btw.  My favorite county aesthetically. I've spent quite a bit of time in the Glens. If you haven't been you definetly should go.

And yes I am suffering from some pretty good insomnia.

[patrick1]

What would Protestants gain from reunification with Ireland? They have no reason to support Sinn Fein or the IRA terrorist thugs. Protestant have as much reason to like Sinn Fein as Catholics do to like the DUP. Not to mention Gerry Adams is a dispicable piece of human trash, just like Paisley.

BRTD a little damned consistency would go a long way.  From anyone else I could accept those comments but not from someone who consistantly glorifies any leftist with an AK or tin horn leftist dictator. 

As for what the Protestants would gain, who knows?  The land was stolen and given to Protestant settlers.  I will remind you of your staggering hypocrisy when you decry the plight of the Black south Africans and called the murder of Apartheid police officers completely justified.  The Protestant community is entrenched though and I personally pray for continued peace.

Now if Catholics were prohibited from most jobs, prohibited from living anywhere but the slumbs, were required to have a special pass to travel to many areas, were prohibited from buying alcohol and were forced to use segregated transportation that was far inferior, than it could be compared to apartheid. Even then one could fairly easily escape their situation and convert to Protestantism, but you can't change your skin color. As for the land stealing, that might be a legitimate complaint but I doubt you'd be too fond of Native Americans demanding that you leave now and they be given the whole country back. You can't punish people now for what their ancestors did 300 years ago.

Catholics were excluded from most jobs (um Harlann and Wolff)- Catholic unemployment was more than double that of Prods, there were unequal voting rights, the housing commissions was discriminatory, the R.U.C. was an instrument of intimidation- over 95% Prod,  Catholics were burned out of their homes, internment was a massive violation of rights. There was collussion between loyalist paramilitaries and the police/army.  As for the converting thing- you don't give up your most firmly held beliefs for expediency- that is an absurd suggestion.  Catholics were treated as second class "citizens" in their own land. 

[patrick1]

How can they tell if you're Catholic or Protestant and thus in the "wrong" group when you're in an area?

Northern Ireland is a pretty small place and neighborhoods are very tightly knit (unlike the U.S.)  People know when you are not one of "them".  Also don't be stupid enough to wear the wrong soccer jersey in the wrong neighborhood- that can get ugly.

[patrick1]

well the situation isn't as bad now. Catholics taking over would basically be a Zimbabwe solution, you go from mistreating one group to mistreating another. Given the choice between a fairly socially progressive country like the UK, and a country as socially conservative as the Republican of Ireland, I'll take the UK any day.

That would not happen- pure 100% Loyalist paranoia.  The Republic is not very socially conservative anymore and decreasingly so.

[patrick1]

The truely shocking thing about the military collusion with the Loyalist paramilitaries is that the soldiers were sent to NI to protect the Catholic minority... Bearing in mind how fast things went downhill during the '70's and '80's it's amazing to think that we can look at the sitution today and say that it's bad.

I can remember when I was a kid that we were all a bit nervous about going into city centres

The great thing is that the shooting has stopped and from talking to people it will stay that way.  People just can't stomach going back to the bad ole days.  Most of the stumbling blocks are procedural in nature.

[patrick1]

Catholics were excluded from most jobs (um Harlann and Wolff)- Catholic unemployment was more than double that of Prods

And even that was very high, most of the time

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the local elections udes to be an utter sham, true. I'd forgotten about that. One thing (that also existed in Great Britain until I think 1918) was the Company vote, which meant you got a vote at your home address and another at your business establishment address. This very much favored Protestants.
 Another thing is that the wards themselves were grotesquely apportioned. I saw the figures for Derry once. Just three wards electing 5 or so people each, unchanged from the 20s to the 70s. One ward, half the city's population, 98% Catholic. One ward, 15% of the city (the Historic center, basically), 60-65% Protestant. One ward, 35% of the city, 60-65% Protestant.

The discrimination throughout the Stormont years was pretty ridiculous.
N.I.C.R.A. definatley had ample gripes.  It is a shame that the Bull Connor-esque tactics of the R.U.C., B specials and the reactionary response of some in the loyalist community helped radicalize the Republican movement.  IMO, the IRA never would have gained as much footing if it were not for the police reaction and a loyalist community embodied by Ian Paisley and not Ivan Cooper.