The Official South Carolina/CBS News/National Journal GOP Debate Thread

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Stopped watching...sh**tty live stream...

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I love how people who never served in combat can be so cavalier in starting wars, and sending other peoples children to be possibly killed

The government is dominated by Chickenhawks...

Amen to that!  Pisses me off when Mr. Five-DeferMITT talks all tough. Hey Mitt- I fought, You didnt

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I love how people who never served in combat can be so cavalier in starting wars, and sending other peoples children to be possibly killed

The government is dominated by Chickenhawks...

Amen to that!  Pisses me off when Mr. Five-DeferMITT talks all tough. Hey Mitt- I fought, You didnt

Unless you want to require military service to be prerequisite to the run for President, it is kind of an unfair standard to say only candidates who are veterans can take a stance on certain issues.

I want military service to be compulsary for all citizens

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I want military service to be compulsary for all citizens

So because you did it, I should? I thought the army supported Freedom...

Clarence's position is pretty stupid and not well thought out. I'm curious as to how he would handle a criticism like: How would compulsory military service not destroy economic output in areas such as a young man or young women owning a business being forced to shut the doors due to compulsory military service?

Or do you have a clue as to how much something like that would cost?

Or do you have any idea how much combat effectiveness drops when you have many people that don't want to be there?

Wouldn't you agree that people who criticize politicians for sending troops to war would have a much better argument if military service was compulsory instead of voluntary? At least for right now those serving chose to make a difference in the rest of the world.


I would point to Clarence's position as just another example of someone producing a knee jerk believe without really spending any time thinking about the consequences of something like that.

First of all to Chairman Sanchez, I am a proud veteran of the United States Navy, not the Army. Then again you're probably among the naive majority who thinks "army" and "military" are synonyms...

 As for Wonkish1...
I do not want to elaborate much on my time in Vietnam or the Navy as I don't want to 1) brag 2) bore you with details 3) relive some of the horrors I saw. Suffice it to say that I know the tragedy that war is and the effects combat can have on a person.  This discussion began with criticism of chickenhawks who send kids to war because THEY haven't thought it out as they have no lived through it. I assure you that any sentiment or belief I have regarding war or the military is more thought out than you could ever imagine.  Your rejection of my view as "stupid" and "not thought out" is immature and innaccurate.

Your views about the economic effects are precisely why I support it.  I disagreed with some others about this earlier but I look at Isreal as a model in many ways, their military as a perfect example. Do you ever wonder why Isreal is EXTREMELY productive for its small size? Why they have the percapita highest number of startups? Why they invent so much technology for military, health, agriculture, etc? Its because of the training and experience their ENTIRE citizenry has in the military.  Familiarization with technology translates into the real world, as my naval construction experience allowed me to have a long and successful career in construction of homes.

Imagine if every citizen at age 21 left the military with very high proficiency in math, science, engineering, etc. On top of that he / she had special skills that are applicable to work, and had the discipline and work ethic instilled by the military AND skills in health, fitness, dieting.  Of course, I also believe everyone should contribute to our national security by serving as it is the right thing to do, but the reasons above are some of the many benefits it would have for our nation's economy.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I want military service to be compulsary for all citizens

So because you did it, I should? I thought the army supported Freedom...

Clarence's position is pretty stupid and not well thought out. I'm curious as to how he would handle a criticism like: How would compulsory military service not destroy economic output in areas such as a young man or young women owning a business being forced to shut the doors due to compulsory military service?

Or do you have a clue as to how much something like that would cost?

Or do you have any idea how much combat effectiveness drops when you have many people that don't want to be there?

Wouldn't you agree that people who criticize politicians for sending troops to war would have a much better argument if military service was compulsory instead of voluntary? At least for right now those serving chose to make a difference in the rest of the world.


I would point to Clarence's position as just another example of someone producing a knee jerk believe without really spending any time thinking about the consequences of something like that.

First of all to Chairman Sanchez, I am a proud veteran of the United States Navy, not the Army. Then again you're probably among the naive majority who thinks "army" and "military" are synonyms...

 As for Wonkish1...
I do not want to elaborate much on my time in Vietnam or the Navy as I don't want to 1) brag 2) bore you with details 3) relive some of the horrors I saw. Suffice it to say that I know the tragedy that war is and the effects combat can have on a person.  This discussion began with criticism of chickenhawks who send kids to war because THEY haven't thought it out as they have no lived through it. I assure you that any sentiment or belief I have regarding war or the military is more thought out than you could ever imagine.  Your rejection of my view as "stupid" and "not thought out" is immature and innaccurate.

Your views about the economic effects are precisely why I support it.  I disagreed with some others about this earlier but I look at Isreal as a model in many ways, their military as a perfect example. Do you ever wonder why Isreal is EXTREMELY productive for its small size? Why they have the percapita highest number of startups? Why they invent so much technology for military, health, agriculture, etc? Its because of the training and experience their ENTIRE citizenry has in the military.  Familiarization with technology translates into the real world, as my naval construction experience allowed me to have a long and successful career in construction of homes.

Imagine if every citizen at age 21 left the military with very high proficiency in math, science, engineering, etc. On top of that he / she had special skills that are applicable to work, and had the discipline and work ethic instilled by the military AND skills in health, fitness, dieting.  Of course, I also believe everyone should contribute to our national security by serving as it is the right thing to do, but the reasons above are some of the many benefits it would have for our nation's economy.

To answer your questions about combat effectiveness...I served in Vietnam, when many men with me did not want to be there. Vietnam was the point of lowest morale in our nation's history. Today I read an article about how suicides among military service members have gone up in the past few years.  Still, combat effectiveness is perfectly fine now as it was in Vietnam. Readiness is formed in training, and soldiers who are not ready to go, don't make it.  Basic Training is meant to teach you how to deal with the worst case scenario

[CLARENCE 2015!]

To answer your questions about combat effectiveness...I served in Vietnam, when many men with me did not want to be there. Vietnam was the point of lowest morale in our nation's history. Today I read an article about how suicides among military service members have gone up in the past few years.  Still, combat effectiveness is perfectly fine now as it was in Vietnam. Readiness is formed in training, and soldiers who are not ready to go, don't make it.  Basic Training is meant to teach you how to deal with the worst case scenario

Wouldn't you agree that tactical errors today aren't even close to what they were like in Vietnam partially because today military personnel see military service as a calling that requires constant focus, attention, and improvement and that contrasts significantly with past wars like Vietnam where many people didn't want to be there.

Tactical errors...I assume by what you mean you are referring to decisions made by officers, who clearly see military as a calling regardless of when they served. Draftees never rise far above private, seaman, airman, etc

As for the Isrealite military, start up fail rate regardless, you have to admit the amount of techonology that comes from there is proportionally far larger than any other nation in the world. They themselves attribute this to military service.

I find your comment that the military doesnt encourage creative thinking to be naive, inaccurate and offensive.  You are trying to paint a picture of the military as a bunch of grunts, men like me who did the rough jobs who are trained strictly for tasks. Did I not say in my last post how boot camp trains people for the worst case situation? When I'm in a village in Vietnam or a mountain pass in Afghanistan, and I'm ambushed, you don't think that requires more creative thinking than you could possibly muster?  Our military men and women are the most rugged survivalists in our nation.  

And training is changing as we rely much more on technology than manpower. Take for instance field artillery, the Army branch where my brother served. He'd tell me how they'd have graph paper and maps on the field and approximate the position of the forward observer, leading to innaccuracies which led to some civilian deaths.  Nowadays, you have the forward observer giving info, the fire data analyzers giving coordinates, and the men with the howitzers adjusting accordingly.

You look down upon the military for doing the dirty work to keep you free.  Lucky for you I never gave a sh**t what the Jane Fondas of the world thought, and neither did any of the men I served with. We served and people serve today because they believe in our country and are willing to be shot at, blown up, permanently disabled, and definitely emotionally scarred to defend it.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

I want military service to be compulsary for all citizens

So because you did it, I should? I thought the army supported Freedom...

Clarence's position is pretty stupid and not well thought out. I'm curious as to how he would handle a criticism like: How would compulsory military service not destroy economic output in areas such as a young man or young women owning a business being forced to shut the doors due to compulsory military service?

Or do you have a clue as to how much something like that would cost?

Or do you have any idea how much combat effectiveness drops when you have many people that don't want to be there?

Wouldn't you agree that people who criticize politicians for sending troops to war would have a much better argument if military service was compulsory instead of voluntary? At least for right now those serving chose to make a difference in the rest of the world.


I would point to Clarence's position as just another example of someone producing a knee jerk believe without really spending any time thinking about the consequences of something like that.

First of all to Chairman Sanchez, I am a proud veteran of the United States Navy, not the Army. Then again you're probably among the naive majority who thinks "army" and "military" are synonyms...

 As for Wonkish1...
I do not want to elaborate much on my time in Vietnam or the Navy as I don't want to 1) brag 2) bore you with details 3) relive some of the horrors I saw. Suffice it to say that I know the tragedy that war is and the effects combat can have on a person.  This discussion began with criticism of chickenhawks who send kids to war because THEY haven't thought it out as they have no lived through it. I assure you that any sentiment or belief I have regarding war or the military is more thought out than you could ever imagine.  Your rejection of my view as "stupid" and "not thought out" is immature and innaccurate.

Your views about the economic effects are precisely why I support it.  I disagreed with some others about this earlier but I look at Isreal as a model in many ways, their military as a perfect example. Do you ever wonder why Isreal is EXTREMELY productive for its small size? Why they have the percapita highest number of startups? Why they invent so much technology for military, health, agriculture, etc? Its because of the training and experience their ENTIRE citizenry has in the military.  Familiarization with technology translates into the real world, as my naval construction experience allowed me to have a long and successful career in construction of homes.

Imagine if every citizen at age 21 left the military with very high proficiency in math, science, engineering, etc. On top of that he / she had special skills that are applicable to work, and had the discipline and work ethic instilled by the military AND skills in health, fitness, dieting.  Of course, I also believe everyone should contribute to our national security by serving as it is the right thing to do, but the reasons above are some of the many benefits it would have for our nation's economy.

To answer your questions about combat effectiveness...I served in Vietnam, when many men with me did not want to be there. Vietnam was the point of lowest morale in our nation's history. Today I read an article about how suicides among military service members have gone up in the past few years.  Still, combat effectiveness is perfectly fine now as it was in Vietnam. Readiness is formed in training, and soldiers who are not ready to go, don't make it.  Basic Training is meant to teach you how to deal with the worst case scenario

Clarence, we dont agree, but thanks for your service in Vietnam. Happpy Vetrans day .

Thank you Wonkish and Chairman Sanchez!

Wonkish- I know you did not mean to be offensive, this old sailor just gets riled up. As for evidence of the Isrealites, they say themselves that their techonological advancement is due to compulsary military service. As for training, of course servicemen and women are always called upon to remember their training which is why even for active duty there is CONSTANT training to reinforce knowledge.  But the most important thing I was told in basic training, identified as most important by my senior drill instructor, a nasty son of a bitch but a helluva brave one, who advanced on Omaha Beach, was "trust that little voice in your head."  First day I set foot in Vietnam, got a rundown by a Lieutenant Commander- I believe his name was Willis- where he repeated the same thing.  If we heard a rustle in the bushes, if we heard what SOUNDED like an animal call, if we saw bubbles in the water...if it didnt feel 100% right, chances are it wasn't, and it was your job to act on YOUR instincts to save yourself and the men around you.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Thank you Wonkish and Chairman Sanchez!

Wonkish- I know you did not mean to be offensive, this old sailor just gets riled up. As for evidence of the Isrealites, they say themselves that their techonological advancement is due to compulsary military service.


As for training, of course servicemen and women are always called upon to remember their training which is why even for active duty there is CONSTANT training to reinforce knowledge.  But the most important thing I was told in basic training, identified as most important by my senior drill instructor, a nasty son of a bitch but a helluva brave one, who advanced on Omaha Beach, was "trust that little voice in your head."  First day I set foot in Vietnam, got a rundown by a Lieutenant Commander- I believe his name was Willis- where he repeated the same thing.  If we heard a rustle in the bushes, if we heard what SOUNDED like an animal call, if we saw bubbles in the water...if it didnt feel 100% right, chances are it wasn't, and it was your job to act on YOUR instincts to save yourself and the men around you.

I divided your answer into two parts. The second one is a very good answer. The first one doesn't constitute evidence of compulsory military service causing their technological advancement. Its an anecdotal(if even that) statement of unidentified people in Israel who make the claim your making without any real step by step explanation as to why. That doesn't pass the test of what constitutes evidence!

I hope you realize that the argument you are making not only is that people can learn valuable lessons and skills from military service(that is kind of obvious), but that it is a unique and superior method of learning high value skills relative to all other places and methods of learning valuable skills and lessons. That is a very, very hard argument to make!

Thank you Senator North Carolina Yankee

Wonkish- here is a link that sums up what I've been hearing from advocated for Isreal http://www.economist.com/node/16892040

While I disagree with the way that article characterizes the US military, it shows what I've been trying to say. I've heard this before at events done by the American Isreal Political Affairs group who have done events that I have been invited to in my area, and I was invited as part of my church to attend their national convention in Washington, where I attended a seminar on Isrealite military technology and how it transitions into their civilian counterparts.  Was extremely interesting.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Wonkish- I don't disagree with Senator North Carolina Yankee. There are definitely strategic defense benefits from having an entire population (age 18 - 49 or so) trained and essentially ready for combat if it came to it.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Thank you Senator North Carolina Yankee

Wonkish- here is a link that sums up what I've been hearing from advocated for Isreal http://www.economist.com/node/16892040

While I disagree with the way that article characterizes the US military, it shows what I've been trying to say. I've heard this before at events done by the American Isreal Political Affairs group who have done events that I have been invited to in my area, and I was invited as part of my church to attend their national convention in Washington, where I attended a seminar on Isrealite military technology and how it transitions into their civilian counterparts.  Was extremely interesting.

Now that is at least evidence! I should point out 2 things.

1) That in the article start-ups are only taking the brightest individuals out of Israeli military. That doesn't necessarily point to it being a superior value added model. Education isn't an entity that is good at selecting who are the smartest already, but instead something that focuses on providing the highest amount of increase or growth in knowledge between two points in time. But this is a minor point compared too...

2) This article does nothing to show that the military is a superior education system than all other alternatives.


Clarence I work in Finance why don't you explain to me how I would benefit on an educational level from time in the military?

Beyond the benefits everyone gets from organization, discipline, etc.....there is an entire branch of each service dedicated to finance, accounting, business management, HR. I never had any of those jobs but I suspect they are all responsible for tens of thousands of men and women.  Working payroll for all these service members- including bonuses, incentives, different rates etc- is definitely good work experience before entering the civilian workforce.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Beyond the benefits everyone gets from organization, discipline, etc.....there is an entire branch of each service dedicated to finance, accounting, business management, HR. I never had any of those jobs but I suspect they are all responsible for tens of thousands of men and women.  Working payroll for all these service members- including bonuses, incentives, different rates etc- is definitely good work experience before entering the civilian workforce.

None of what you just said would be job experience for my kind of work. If I was in corporate finance or accounting that would be a different story, but the military has basically no work applicable to securities, nor does it teach you how to sell yourself, nor does it provide any education or experience in matters of tax issues, etc.

Given my chosen career path a university provides significantly better education on those areas and designations provide even better education than a university.

Selling yourself...ask any man seeking a promotion in the military. It's not something I'm proud of, but schmoozing is probably more important for an officer seeing the next grade than in anything else...too political. Tax issues have to also be dealt with all the time, especially with regards to combat pay.

Granted, nothing in the military prepares you to deal with securities. I have to say though that when I was wealthier and had a portfolio just over $1M, I chose my wealth manager based upon his military service. He was a Marine and told me that many of his clients were veterans, and his office actually directed all veterans to him so it provided him a steady flow of clients.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Selling yourself...ask any man seeking a promotion in the military. It's not something I'm proud of, but schmoozing is probably more important for an officer seeing the next grade than in anything else...too political. Tax issues have to also be dealt with all the time, especially with regards to combat pay.

Granted, nothing in the military prepares you to deal with securities. I have to say though that when I was wealthier and had a portfolio just over $1M, I chose my wealth manager based upon his military service. He was a Marine and told me that many of his clients were veterans, and his office actually directed all veterans to him so it provided him a steady flow of clients.

No offense but your first paragraph is kind of reaching. Bringing up the tax issues involved in combat pay is like bringing up your family budget as experience in handling the budget of a corporation. Its not realistic at all.

So would you agree that not all professions stand to benefit more from a military education in comparison to others?

That is just one example, but I think many would tell you that tax issues are very prevalent in military pay. I would absolutely not agree with that, as I believe everyone benefits from military service due to organization and discipline.

I did not grow up wanting to serve in the military. I flunked out of college at 20 after failing one too many engineering courses.  The United States Navy changed me and made me the man I became.  I retired as a Chief Petty Officer (a high enlisted rank) and made the transition from mobile military construction to the construction of new homes. The timing was good and I made my way down to Florida to participate in the boom there.  By the time I retired, I was living in a dream- a 13 acre property in rural North Florida with the woman I loved in a home I built. I had an investment portfolio of about $1.1 million.  If you had told me I would become a millionaire in the time between college and the Navy, I would have laughed. While I have lost most of my fortune in the past several years trying to make my wife's last years as comfortable as possible, I still have enough to buy a smaller house in a more urban area, pay for medical expenses, eat and drink plenty, and occasionally travel. If it weren't for the US Navy, I would be either homeless or dead.

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Why do the skills or attributes that are acquired from military service have to be career specific to benefit someone in a certain occupation?

EXACTLY!

[CLARENCE 2015!]

That is just one example, but I think many would tell you that tax issues are very prevalent in military pay. I would absolutely not agree with that, as I believe everyone benefits from military service due to organization and discipline.

I did not grow up wanting to serve in the military. I flunked out of college at 20 after failing one too many engineering courses.  The United States Navy changed me and made me the man I became.  I retired as a Chief Petty Officer (a high enlisted rank) and made the transition from mobile military construction to the construction of new homes. The timing was good and I made my way down to Florida to participate in the boom there.  By the time I retired, I was living in a dream- a 13 acre property in rural North Florida with the woman I loved in a home I built. I had an investment portfolio of about $1.1 million.  If you had told me I would become a millionaire in the time between college and the Navy, I would have laughed. While I have lost most of my fortune in the past several years trying to make my wife's last years as comfortable as possible, I still have enough to buy a smaller house in a more urban area, pay for medical expenses, eat and drink plenty, and occasionally travel. If it weren't for the US Navy, I would be either homeless or dead.

Wait a minute you are actually going to tell me that military is superior to all other methods of education for a career in finance? You serious? This is news to me, and that would be news to a lot of people in my industry. Damn I really blew it then with my degree in finance and my designations, my experience working in securities while in college, and my 12,000 hours of personal study. I should have just not done all of that and instead just joined the military and I guess I would be a lot more knowledgeable today and be a lot further in my career than I am now. Oops!

Sorry for the satire, but if the military was better for my career prospects I would have done it and so would have many others in my industry. They didn't because its not.

1- I've enjoyed this discussion up until now, but you are showing your true colors as a sarcastic, disrespectful, little prick.

2- Never would I advocate the military instead of a college education,but as a supplement.

Perhaps some military service would have done you wonders in terms of respect and professionalism.  I certainly hope you do not have this sort of attitude in your work with securities, getting coffee for a hedge fund manager or whatever it is you do. 

[CLARENCE 2015!]

Typical military service nowadays is 3 years active duty, 3 years inactive reserve. 3 years for your country? No to hard a choice to make.

I gotta get myself to bed now