American democracy has ground to a halt.

[smoltchanov]

I would agree, that polarization WAS mainly GOP fault until, may be, 2010. It began in late 1970th, probably, when liberal Republican Senators Case and Javits were defeated in primaries by relatively unknown candidates, who modeled their campaigns on Reagan's challenge to Ford in 1976 (interesting, that Republicans couldn't elect single Senator in New Jersey after Case, and while Al D'Amato served 3 terms, he was endangered most of the time). But after 2010 - Democrats are rapidly catching up in their desire to be "pure", and now are only slightly less polarized than Republicans. I will not even speak about "real conservaties" - not only there are none on federal level (Manchin, Peterson, Cuellar, Lipinski and so on are centrists, not conservatives!), but even on state legislative level there is only a handful of moderate conservatives (none - "real", though 8-10 years ago there were some) among Democrats, and vengeful cries "primary him/her!!" directed against candidate, who strayed even a little from party "orthodoxy", became as frequent in Democratic party as they are in Republican. "Plague on BOTH your houses" phrase comes to mind instantly.... You got what you wanted and promoted, guys. And 1/3 of your people, who call themselves "moderates", essentially have no one to vote for. Is it a democracy? IMHO - it's a Bolshevism in BOTH parties... You simply have two varieties of Bolshevicks....

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Agree. But when it's these "activists" and parties, who decide everything, results are hardly normal. After all - theoretically parties must reflect thoughts and desires of the people. For US liberals Democratic party more or less does that (though even among liberal-leaning people not all will support "bold progressism" in every detail), the same - for conservatives and Republican party. But for other? Zero.

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Ok let me say voting patterns were the least polarizing in the 80s then it has in any decade since the 50s

I would disagree (as a person who observed events with my own eyes). But i mean "party polarization". In 1960th and 1970th Democratic party still elected considerable number of conservatives on federal and state level. In 1980th - much less. The same - for Republican party, which, after Reagan campaign of 1976, began "self-cleaning" of the party from liberals.

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Ok let me say voting patterns were the least polarizing in the 80s then it has in any decade since the 50s

Once again...voting patterns weren't that polarized in the 80s because the political elite that made-up the parties weren't polarized and still tried to find common ground. (remember this was before right wing talk radio and FOX ''news'') That shiit is gone today. Mitch McConnell is a sociopath who has no problem tearing down whatever norms exist in his way and Trump has no problem launching a borderline civil war to keep himself in office.

The voters have no real opinions on anything. Their opinions are whatever the party tells them to believe and under Trump, they will continue to be borderline insane with a fervent need to punish the other side for made-up reasons.

First of all - i disagree. I am the voter (it doesn't matter - where, in this case), and i have real opinion on almost everything.  And MY opinions are NOT what any party tells it's adherents - they are MY opinions, which sometimes coincide, and sometimes - not, with positions of this or that party on particular issue (in fact - in different situations that may be different parties). And i haven't the slightest desire "to be told what to do" by ANY party or person. Even less - to play the role of ram escorted to slaughterhouse.

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Ok let me say voting patterns were the least polarizing in the 80s then it has in any decade since the 50s

I would disagree (as a person who observed events with my own eyes). But i mean "party polarization". In 1960th and 1970th Democratic party still elected considerable number of conservatives on federal and state level. In 1980th - much less. The same - for Republican party, which, after Reagan campaign of 1976, began "self-cleaning" of the party from liberals.

In that way that’s true but look at the fact that Reagan won huge landslides while Dems won big in Congress.  Look at how often states changed hands during the decade .Look at the fact that Reagan’s support in both his elections was pretty uniform across the nation.


And during the 1980s probably the largest tax reform bill passed on bipartisan consensus

Here i agree, but Civil Rights laws of 1960th were passed only because of similar bipartisan consensus. So it's at least debatable. In 1960th-1970th there was a number of extremely polarizing issues (from Civil Rights to Vietnam) - that's true as well, but parties were infinitely less polarized, then now...

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Ok let me say voting patterns were the least polarizing in the 80s then it has in any decade since the 50s

Once again...voting patterns weren't that polarized in the 80s because the political elite that made-up the parties weren't polarized and still tried to find common ground. (remember this was before right wing talk radio and FOX ''news'') That shiit is gone today. Mitch McConnell is a sociopath who has no problem tearing down whatever norms exist in his way and Trump has no problem launching a borderline civil war to keep himself in office.

The voters have no real opinions on anything. Their opinions are whatever the party tells them to believe and under Trump, they will continue to be borderline insane with a fervent need to punish the other side for made-up reasons.

They were less polarizing the they were in the 60s and 70s as well .

I think the 60s and 70s would be better described as “social polarization” than as “political polarization”. Nonetheless, that ultimately lead to “polarization burnout”.

My opinion too. Still, as i may consider himself a sort of expert on "Bolshevism", what i see now in US is a two absolutely Bolshevicks (by methods) parties. Or, if you prefer -  our Russian "Reds" and "Whites" of Russian Civil War time. And - a country torn into two big camps visceraly hating each other (again - the same as in Russia 100 years ago) without any meditating and balancing forces.  You, probably, know how it's all ended in Russia. And i don't want the same fate for America. But you are definitely moving in that direction. In last decades - by leaps and jumps, not steps...

[smoltchanov]

^ One of the turning points - sure.

P.S. BTW, if we continue historical analogies - Russia now is similar to itself in pre-1905 year period: empire, seemnigly strong "tsar", and disorganized opposition, part of which is very tame. In few years it's all changed drastically. It seems - history tends to repeat itself...

[smoltchanov]

For those who denounce polarized politics, please remember in the early W. Bush years both parties had the same foreign policy and disagreed only slightly on domestic policy. That was only a decade and a half ago.

I sometimes have a chill down my spine when I hear people complain about polarization. It seems to me many would rather see the public mindlessly cheering any autocratic action for the sake of "national unity" then have unpleasant democratic debate.

Present day "debates" are neither "debates" nor "democratic". It's a "brute force politics" of "i am a boss - you are a fool, you are a boss - i am a fool" type. Greatly prefer even "early W. Bush" years over present day full idiocy.

[smoltchanov]

For those who denounce polarized politics, please remember in the early W. Bush years both parties had the same foreign policy and disagreed only slightly on domestic policy. That was only a decade and a half ago.

I sometimes have a chill down my spine when I hear people complain about polarization. It seems to me many would rather see the public mindlessly cheering any autocratic action for the sake of "national unity" then have unpleasant democratic debate.

I absolutely agree with this. The “liberal” media fell in love with W as soon as he started running and demonized Gore, a bunch of Democrats voted for the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, No Child Left Behind was passed almost unanimously by both Houses of Congress, the Democrats didn’t talk about Tora Bora or W’s environmental policy anywhere close to as much as they should have, the 2004 Democratic convention banned negative speeches while the Republican convention was ungrateful for the all the support that W received from Democrats, 9/11 resulted in anyone who wasn’t a gun-owning Evangelical getting called “unpatriotic”, etc., and to cap it all off, an actual child molester was Speaker of the House from 1999-2006.

If there was a  “golden age”, it was November 6, 1996 - April 19, 1999.

It was much earlier. I count all period of 1961-1976 as "golden age".... And it was substantially more bipartisan, then 1996-1999

[smoltchanov]

am I the only one who, while thinking polarization in and of itself is a bad thing, that a lot of the reason I hate it is because its hurt the democratic party a lot more than the republican party? I mean that's one thing I'm honest about.

It hurt Democratic party more because a conservative Democratic wing was almost always bigger, then liberal Republican one. So, the loss of this wing hurt Democrats much more (numerically) then loss of relatively small liberal Republican wing hurt Republicans.

Example: I have first edition of "Almanac of American Politics" (1972) at home. About 40 Democrats in House belong to "more or less solid conservative" camp, with median ADA/ACA rating for previous 2-3 years less then 17 (roughly - 1/6 from maximum 100). Republicans? Exactly 2 in House have more then 83 ("more or less solid liberals"). It's less unequal in Senate, where theere were at least 4 rather liberal Republican Senators (Case, Javits, Brooke, Mathias), but Democratic conservatives still "prevail"....

[smoltchanov]

idk why you guys are so down on America, from what I can see it's pretty chill rn.

Chill? I can't remember it's being so down, and in worse condition, then now. And i remember Kennedy's murder... And Vietnam war. And Watergate. And many other events...

[smoltchanov]

The problem with this viewpoint is that most voters dont have desires. They are essentially lemmings who's viewpoints are dictated by their identity and/or partisanship. Read this article for a better explanation.

We've all seen how Republican voters change positions on a whim just as long as Trump tells them to. Keep in mind that more ''informed'' voters are actually the biggest hacks of all. They are smart enough to know they are being hacks so they hide behind well written talking points. These are like the Trump supporters of Atlas who routinely change their mind when Trump does and just make up the reasoning as they go along.

I will read a paper, when  time allows (it's long), but, personaly - absolutely refuse to be "lemming"))). I have both desires AND positions on issues. So - it's not about me))). Naturally, i base my reasonings on my own positions and vision. As a result, we will always see situation somewhat differently..

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Agree. But when it's these "activists" and parties, who decide everything, results are hardly normal. After all - theoretically parties must reflect thoughts and desires of the people. For US liberals Democratic party more or less does that (though even among liberal-leaning people not all will support "bold progressism" in every detail), the same - for conservatives and Republican party. But for other? Zero.

The problem with this viewpoint is that most voters dont have desires. They are essentially lemmings who's viewpoints are dictated by their identity and/or partisanship. Read this article for a better explanation.

We've all seen how Republican voters change positions on a whim just as long as Trump tells them to. Keep in mind that more ''informed'' voters are actually the biggest hacks of all. They are smart enough to know they are being hacks so they hide behind well written talking points. These are like the Trump supporters of Atlas who routinely change their mind when Trump does and just make up the reasoning as they go along.

That article is as convincing as it is true and depressing

And IF it's true - don't brag about "American democracy" over whole world anymore. Nothing to brag about... "Democracy of lemmings" isn't a good example....

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Agree. But when it's these "activists" and parties, who decide everything, results are hardly normal. After all - theoretically parties must reflect thoughts and desires of the people. For US liberals Democratic party more or less does that (though even among liberal-leaning people not all will support "bold progressism" in every detail), the same - for conservatives and Republican party. But for other? Zero.

The problem with this viewpoint is that most voters dont have desires. They are essentially lemmings who's viewpoints are dictated by their identity and/or partisanship. Read this article for a better explanation.

We've all seen how Republican voters change positions on a whim just as long as Trump tells them to. Keep in mind that more ''informed'' voters are actually the biggest hacks of all. They are smart enough to know they are being hacks so they hide behind well written talking points. These are like the Trump supporters of Atlas who routinely change their mind when Trump does and just make up the reasoning as they go along.

That article is as convincing as it is true and depressing

And IF it's true - don't brag about "American democracy" over whole world anymore. Nothing to brag about... "Democracy of lemmings" isn't a good example....

The rest of the world is in even worse place

Even if so - at least they don't brag about their "virtues" over the world... And, with all gigantic problems we have in Russia - i frequently have a better choice of candidates here, then i would have in US, where person with my views would desperately chose not whom he likes more, but whom he hates less...

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Agree. But when it's these "activists" and parties, who decide everything, results are hardly normal. After all - theoretically parties must reflect thoughts and desires of the people. For US liberals Democratic party more or less does that (though even among liberal-leaning people not all will support "bold progressism" in every detail), the same - for conservatives and Republican party. But for other? Zero.

The problem with this viewpoint is that most voters dont have desires. They are essentially lemmings who's viewpoints are dictated by their identity and/or partisanship. Read this article for a better explanation.

We've all seen how Republican voters change positions on a whim just as long as Trump tells them to. Keep in mind that more ''informed'' voters are actually the biggest hacks of all. They are smart enough to know they are being hacks so they hide behind well written talking points. These are like the Trump supporters of Atlas who routinely change their mind when Trump does and just make up the reasoning as they go along.

That article is as convincing as it is true and depressing

And IF it's true - don't brag about "American democracy" over whole world anymore. Nothing to brag about... "Democracy of lemmings" isn't a good example....

The rest of the world is in even worse place

Even if so - at least they don't brag about their "virtues" over the world... And, with all gigantic problems we have in Russia - i frequently have a better choice of candidates here, then i would have in US, where person with my views would desperately chose not whom he likes more, but whom he hates less...

You only have one choice , Vladimir Putin .

Idiocy. We have elections to Duma (national and Moscow)  and lot of local elections too. American idiots, who think that Russia = Putin - well, idiots are the same everywhere...

[smoltchanov]

Congress worked fine until Reagan got elected and inspired an entire generation of true believer legislative bomb throwers to go into politics. Polarization is primarily the GOP's fault but the media with its insistence on bothsidesism doesn't want to say so.

Yes, Polarization Is Asymmetric—and Conservatives Are Worse

Tribalism Isn’t Our Democracy’s Main Problem. The Conservative Movement Is.

Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

The 1980s were one of the least polarizing decades since the 50s at least when it comes to the public.

 

The public is never polarized. The public has no deeply held political beliefs. It is the elites and activists who are polarized, not the public. For the umpteenth time....only the political parties are polarized.

Agree. But when it's these "activists" and parties, who decide everything, results are hardly normal. After all - theoretically parties must reflect thoughts and desires of the people. For US liberals Democratic party more or less does that (though even among liberal-leaning people not all will support "bold progressism" in every detail), the same - for conservatives and Republican party. But for other? Zero.

The problem with this viewpoint is that most voters dont have desires. They are essentially lemmings who's viewpoints are dictated by their identity and/or partisanship. Read this article for a better explanation.

We've all seen how Republican voters change positions on a whim just as long as Trump tells them to. Keep in mind that more ''informed'' voters are actually the biggest hacks of all. They are smart enough to know they are being hacks so they hide behind well written talking points. These are like the Trump supporters of Atlas who routinely change their mind when Trump does and just make up the reasoning as they go along.

That article is as convincing as it is true and depressing

And IF it's true - don't brag about "American democracy" over whole world anymore. Nothing to brag about... "Democracy of lemmings" isn't a good example....

The rest of the world is in even worse place

Even if so - at least they don't brag about their "virtues" over the world... And, with all gigantic problems we have in Russia - i frequently have a better choice of candidates here, then i would have in US, where person with my views would desperately chose not whom he likes more, but whom he hates less...

You only have one choice , Vladimir Putin .

Idiocy. We have elections to Duma (national and Moscow)  and lot of local elections too. American idiots, who think that Russia = Putin - well, idiots are the same everywhere...

In a Presidential Election yes thats all you have.

That's all you can say? I expected more. Yes, right now, because of careful "field cleaning" by FSB - it's almost all we have on this level. But - we had very lively and democratic elections (including Presidental) in 1990th, and will have them again really soon (no one will be able to wear Putin's shoes after him, and situation will develop rather quickly after). BTW, 28 years after beginning of American Revolution YOU had legal slavery and other "pleasures".... And your Senate wasn't elected by the people until 100+ years later. So, again - you have nothing to brag about. Especially if what you have NOW is a result of 240+ years of "democratic rule"....