The European Disease (user search)
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Author Topic: The European Disease  (Read 2495 times)
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« on: June 04, 2005, 05:42:12 AM »

Eurosocialism? Wtf? France et al are not Socialist. They're failing social model is not Socialist. At all. Statist does NOT = Socialist.
Bah humbug. And what's all this "Europe" thing? Some European countries don't have these problems. I live in one of them.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2005, 02:21:21 PM »

Britain escaped these problems because of Margaret Thatcher.  Before she came along, Britain was the sick man of Europe.

Not actually true. The British Welfare State has always been very different to, say, France's; it was set up by very different people for very different reasons. And with the notable exception of H.M Customs & Excises*, the bureaucracy in the U.K has always tended to have something of a human face and been reasonably approachable.
Before Ted Heath** the economy was usually pretty good with the odd hiccup every now and again (over things that don't seem even slightly important now) but the Heath government combined a complete lack of economic competence with an even greater lack of competence as far as dealing with the international economic crisis (es) and energy crisis went... and he made both worse by picking a fight with the miners in an attempt to get re-elected; causing the infamous Three Day Week, which made the economic crisis worse... etc. etc.
Most of the underlying problems in the economy were actually dealt with by the Callaghan government which actually adopted free markety policies in many areas, began a moderate privatisation/deregulation programme (and was one of the first governments to take inner city decline seriously; something that still hasn't really happend in France). Thatcher came to power because of a wave of public sector strikes (the Winter of Discontent) more than anything else. Whether Thatcher's policies were effective or not is debatable and as the answers of both sides are kinda predictable I won't start that off Wink
I will add that the return of mass unemployment to Britain after a gap of almost half a century happend during the Thatcher years and <cut>
Ahh... went off at a tangent there Smiley

*Who obviously spend too much time dealing with the French

**There's actually a society of Ted Heath burners. They get together and burn effigies of Heath. No joke. But they do it for a different reason to the ones I'm talking about.
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2005, 02:53:14 AM »

How do you benefit from increasing GDP if you don't have a job?

You don't

The social safety net - welfare, the dole, free medical care, etc.

You can't really live on unemployment benifit. Besides unless you're actually looking for a job you don't get any most countries. You can't just quit working because you feel like it and expect other people to pay everything for you. Free healthcare (and exactly how this works is very, very different in different countries) isn't really relavent to this IMO.

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Rubbish. At least they have work. Mass unemployment is a great social evil; that you can't understand this just shows how out of touch with reality you are.

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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2005, 04:51:25 AM »

Too rigid a labour marked and too big and unflexible companies

Exactly
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2005, 05:36:22 AM »

Am I wrong if social tensions could be decribed as the major obsticle in GB? Rich gettoes with little or no understanding for the poorer parts of the country and and a group of poor with no change of ever getting an education and a decent job?

Up to a point, yes. I forget the exact quote but Orwell was spot on when he described Britain as the most class ridden country under the sun (or something like that).

It's not really the case anymore that there's a large group of people with no chance of a good job etc... but that's a very recent change (although the fact that that was the case at all is fairly recent) as over the past 8 years there's been something of a quiet revolution as far as dealing with the poor goes (minimum wage, the new deal (which has reduced youth unemployment by over a million), new deal for communities etc etc) which has been pretty sucessful overall; the general idea is to get people back to work (which, by and large, is what they want) and it wouldn't actually have been possible if the labour market wasn't flexible etc.
Still a lot to do though; and a problem is that most of it is reversable (both main opposition parties favour scrapping the new deal for example).
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2005, 04:42:42 AM »

Well, certainly this work-requirement should be removed.

Why? So lazy f***ers can abuse the system? How the hell does that help the unemployed?

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I'm fairly sure it does; actual unemployment in most of those countries is far higher than the official figures (which, IIRC, are just claimant count in some countries). Could be wrong, but I don't think so.

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No, that's not true either. I fail to see how spending a lot of time, effort and money to end mass unemployment is "right-wing".

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Rubbish. You just don't get it do you?
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Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,899
United Kingdom


« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2005, 04:58:32 AM »


Thanks

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I think you'll find that the unemployed don't. As an aside, do you know quite how high unemployment is in the former East Germany? Quite scary really...

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In the end, meaningless

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Right. That's way America's economy is stuck in a rut with mass unemployment on a frightening scale and is dragging down the economies of the rest of the continent and Germany has just emerged from a recession and is growing at a fairly rapid rate, has low unemployment etc. etc.
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