Scotch-Irish?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

So much risible pseudohistory in this thread and so little time. Where even to start?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

At the time most of these people emigrated (the 1700's and early 1800's) there wasn't really a singular "English" identity

Yes there was. In fact there was much more of one than a French identity in France, a German identity in the German states, etc.

Of course Englishness differed (and differs) in different parts of England, but it is a big country (population-wise at least) and that kind of thing is absolutely normal. Of course it can also be true of very small countries, as in Wales.

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No, they most certainly did regard themselves as English and did so every bit as much as people further south. The Venerable Bede was a Northumbrian you know.

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The Border was (and is) lightly populated and there isn't much in the way of settlement continuity around it (Berwick-upon-Tweed is like the only significant exception). You cross the border and the accents change pretty much automatically. Quite different from the Anglo-Welsh border which is 'deep' and very porous. Cumberland is very English, Dumfriesshire is very Scottish.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And yes I do think that there is a level of Anglophobia that stretches back in this country to the Revolution.  Hence in the south, you will see more identifying as plan American or Scotch Irish and the phenomenon of seemingly everyone claiming some Native American ancestry.

^^^

If you want to answer the mystery of why so few Americans claim English ancestry when rather obviously a large majority of White (and... um... Black...) Americans have some, then the above is a better place to start. Your own cultural history is way more relevant on this point than ours.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The northwest of England was less influenced by the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and so they would be more likely to identify with Scots, ignoring that there were Saxon kingdoms in Scotland.

...

Words fail.

No one outside Scotland would have identified themselves as Scots or Scottish or whatever. No one. Largely because they, you know, were not Scottish. In any case to most people in Northern England the Scots were a bunch of barely civilised nuisance neighbours who invaded every now and again, caused a mess, and buggered off home once they'd lost/run of supplies/etc...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Fwiw the traditional way of claiming different ancestry to those softies in the South is to point to Norse settlement and the Danelaw rather than 'Celtic' anything.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

My point is that your average White American probably has ancestors from as many countries as he/she has fingers.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There was clearly a lot of migration from Cumberland, and many families with branches on both sides of the English-Scottish border (Taylor, Graham, Jackson, etc).

The thing about common surnames is that not everyone who has them is related. Not that there's never been a degree of back-and-forth but it was never really that sort of border in general. Probably its historic status as 'terrible no mans land don't go there' contributed to this. As did the tendency of some of the 'trouble' the region saw to take on a blatant ethnic character on occasion.

And the critical point here is by the 17th/18th century; sure if you go a very long way back you'd likely find common ancestry in the region and all that, but that's kind of beyond irrelevant to how people thought of themselves (and literally what they were in terms of culture and religion and so on) centuries later.

Though of those you've listed, Taylor isn't a Border surname at all (its an occupational surname - so to an extent you'll get it everywhere but only to an extent - historically most common in Lancashire and the Midlands and also Scotland north of the Forth) and Jackson is rare north of it.

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Cart before horse: it was a comparatively lawless region (though less than 19th century sentimental narratives suggest) precisely because it was lightly populated and a long way away from any major population centres. Apart from a couple of river valleys its basically all utterly unproductive upland, not capable of supporting much in the way of population. You had a couple of large towns, but Carlisle was very English and Dumfries very Scottish; Berwick is/was the only one where identity issues would have been particularly complex. Note also that only part of Cumberland is Border; the towns on the west coast actually had better links with Ireland than with Scotland.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

He lived on the coast. Northumbria went up to the Firth of Forth, but how much penetration was there of the Pennines?

Its an upland region, most people have always lived in the river valleys or on the coast. I don't think settlement of the North Pennines extended much beyond Stanhope (still doesn't, come to think of it) which was a lead mining centre from way back when. But the Wear Valley was densely population (by the standards of the time) throughout the period and of course that extends a long way into the North Pennines. In the centuries after Bede you have the foundation of Durham City (very, very English) which was the centre of political power in the region until the 1830s. Similar story as regards the Tyne; Hexham Abbey was an important religious centre (with royal burials etc) from the 7th century and thats a long way up the valley.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Identify with the Scottish. How many people who live in Cumberland or Lancashire support Chelsea?

More than support Celtic or Rangers.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Pseudo-history at its most cringeworthy right there.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I'll need about two hours to pick through the wreckage.

I just want to highlight this thing about 'warlike' 'Celtic' peoples and 'peaceful' Anglo-Saxons and contrast it with the actual known history of the early Middle Ages...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Its actually kind of fascinating...