US House Redistricting: New York

[NY Jew]

Please, people. 50% on DRA is not 50%. That's 53%. Get.that.into.your.heads.

What you probably cannot do is get to actual 50% without crossing into Nassau while also uniting Rockaway, drawing a clear northern line rather than cherrypicking precincts down to the very last Black resident, and giving Woodhaven to Velazquez.

As for Inwood, it was probably done because he felt it a better fit or something. And/or enabled cleaner lines for Israel in Queens and for the McCarthy/Israel line.

And the Jewish part of Far Rockway is an infinite times better fit in the LI district then Inwood is in the Black district which goes back to my original question.

[NY Jew]

[with more potential for an even larger one embedded (but not reflected in the 2008 voting stats), in the orthodox Jewish vote

Uh... what?

The appropriate inference to draw from the text is that I assume that  there is a potential for there being a cohort of orthodox Jews, along with some other Jews perhaps, who voted for Obama last time, who won't this time in disproportionate numbers, such that with this cohort, it will not only swing to the GOP, but also trend that way.  This, despite Lowey being Jewish herself. Thank you.

Looking at FL-22 and NY-9 data from 2000 through 2004 through 2008, it appears that group already trended that way once. I don't know how much further they have to trend (given that everyone expects Obama to underperform 2008 anyway) and, more, importantly, if they're going to take it out on the senior Jewish lady (born: 1937) who is their representative and meets with them individually.

Recall that if Hillary hadn't run in 2000, Lowey was the front-runner to succeed Pat Moynihan. Nebbishes and people who are legends in their own mind only don't generally get plum nominations like that.

right now Orthodox Jews are one of the least politically involved groups in the country (we have record low registration rates)
 (mostly do to systematic anti semtic redistricting for the past 40 years so on a local level our vote is mostly nullified.)
If we ever got fully involved in politics more dems will drop

[NY Jew]

Hmmm... don't know about turnout. But as to the Republican vote share among Orthodox Jews in Rockland County... "maxed out" is a word that comes to mind.

my point wasn't based on % but turn out even if the Orthodox vote goes slightly towards the democrats % wise if the jewish vote increases it's turn out that can have major effects.

[NY Jew]

Crowley wins all those types of battles.

Looking at the State Senate map, it pretty much preserves the previous gerrymander of Long Island, though I'm sure there are changes here and there.  The seats that the Republicans gained back in 2010 were 3 and 7 that were lost in 2008 - I'd really need to examine these boundaries closely to see what was done.  5 and 6 have also been somewhat close in the 2006/2008 cycle, fwiw, the others were never close.

NYC becomes even more gerrymandered than before, in Brooklyn, particularly, - Avella (11) and Stavisky (16) are pulled into the same district on the edges, but this is Avella's territory.  Huntley (10), Gianaris (12), Peralta (13), Smith (14) retain pretty much the same shape, though note the finger they created in Addabo's district (15). (16) is open (as noted above) and a monstrosity as before - I need to see whether anything's different here - doesn't look like it on its face.  (17) is the NY Jew seat, formed from Kruger and part of Parker. Dilan, formerly (17), now becomes (18), basically the same.  Sampson (19) nor Adams (20) receives no real change worth mentioning, except Adams gets Sunset Park for some reason now, in exchange for his parts of the new NY Jew seat.  It's also an ugly gerrymander.

Parker (21) is pushed northwards, gaining more black liberal areas.  Marty Golden (GOP) in (22) took the parts of Kruger's seat that were marginal/Republican, but not Jewish - it is a gerrymander of beauty.  Savino (23) and Lanza (GOP) (24) are also pretty much the same as before. Montgomery, formerly (18), now becomes (25), basically the same.  I'm still in Squadron's district now renumbered as (26) from (25), but no real material changes.  Duane is renumbered (27) after being (29), and loses a lot of the upper West Side north of 72nd Street (don't know why) and there's also some weird gerrymander into MSG/Penn Station/Port Authority Bus Terminal for Espillat that I can't explain. Liz Kreuger's UES/Murray Hill SD becomes (28) from (26) and becomes a bit less compact.  Serrano (29) from (28) trades some of Spanish Harlem for a chunk of the Upper West Side above 72nd, which I can't particularly figure out either.  Perkins (30) still has his Harlem seat.

Getting to Espillat (31), his seat is still Washington Heights and chunks other places.  Diaz in (32) becomes much uglier, probably to protect him even better, I would suspect.  I don't believe Rivera (33) changes in any substantial way.  Klein (34) loses most of his Westchester parts, but retains basically the same structure otherwise, gaining more of the parts of the upper income/white Bronx (to the extent such things exist of course).  Hassell-Thompson gets nicer boundaries (36), but is basically the same black district.

I'll do upstate tomorrow (35 and 37-63), but as we can see, the GOP is looking to create the new NY Jew seat and shore up Golden in Brooklyn (like he really needs much - the problem is when he retires) to get 3 seats out of the city instead of 2.  I'll have to look over Queens to see if any games are being played there - nothing shows on its face, so the GOP may have well left that alone, realizing that it is probably gone.  I also need to look over Long Island - there are probably some changes at the margins that I'm missing.

State Assembly is not really worth messing with too much - pretty sure it preserves the same Dem gerrymander and massive margins.

Golden's takes in some very Jewish areas

[NY Jew]

Well, this won't be a majority Jewish district, would it be? And, of course, the Jewish community there would be divided between the Orthodox/Hassidic and pork-and-cheese-eating Russian: calling this a "community of interest", to the exclusion of the secular Jews (other than recent ex-Soviet migrants), is a definite stretch - they seem to believe they have more in common w/ Italian Catholics than w/ most American Jews. A funny notion of a "racial" group it is )

this very likely would be (see page 55) the Orthodox community grew tremendously since then

http://www.jewishdatabank.org/Archive/C-NY-New_York-2002-Geographic_Profile_Report.pdf

[NY Jew]

BTW, I got a great idea for a Jewish district in Brooklyn :)) Take Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and even Crown Heights - you can't say we are splitting the Orthodox, can you? Williamsburg's missing - but that's a bit off geographically, hard to get w/ the rest without ugly gerrymanders. Add Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights - these are Jews, as much or more so than the bacon-on-matzo Russians. If you are creative, this would not be much less Jewish, if at all so, than the South Brooklyn version. Pack the rest w/ reliably democratic minority areas and bingo - a reliably Dem district with an Orthodox Jewish pack at its core ) Should be doable ))

that would not come close to half  in order to get to Crown Heights (all bunched up) for example you would have to take in way to many blacks which would never work with the voting rights act and would never take in enough jews to be worth it.  (Williamsburg would be possible if you use the east river)

[NY Jew]

I wouldn't be that sure. Just by plugging in the South Brooklyn numbers on that map I got about 360,000 - but big chunks of that are well outside of the proposed district (they are just too spread). Also, of course, this includes both the Orthodox and the Russians (big chunk of whom are not even halakhikally Jewish, and most of whom have no love lost for the Orthodox) and the others, raising the issue of existence of a "community of interest". And while the Orthodox might be growing, is the entire growth in Brooklyn and does it compensate for the emigration of  all sorts of Jews to the suburbs? Though, perhaps, I'd grant you that it should be possible to gerrymander a Jewish majority district in Brooklyn - and do so even without the Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights folk that you've come to consider goyim because they don't vote the way you like ) But you'd, probably, have to be quite a bit more ingenious about the boundaries, to get rid of the gentiles and the "wrong" Jews.

but many of those areas way out of the jewish district have very few jews
for example I'm sure zip codes 11236 (Canarsie) 16,946 whites and 11239 (Starett City) 5,546 whites according to the 2000 census really effect the 42,900 jews in zip codes 11234 + 11236 + 11239 tremendously.

get it through your head Orthodox jews and Russian Jews live in ethnic enclaves I doubt there are any normal size blocks where non Orthodox or Russian Jews are the majority on the block.
for example the only unsupergerrymandered way to make this more Jewish would be to take in more of Bensonhurst.  Taking in Brooklyn Heights will never make this even close to the 50% number

[NY Jew]

No there would be no VRA violation since the preferred candidate of the black community would clearly win that district.

anti semite I wasn't responding to you the areas he included would make the area much to white to pass muster with the voting rights act (assuming he knows the first thing about where the Orthodox community lives)

[NY Jew]

BTW, I got a great idea for a Jewish district in Brooklyn :)) Take Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and even Crown Heights - you can't say we are splitting the Orthodox, can you? Williamsburg's missing - but that's a bit off geographically, hard to get w/ the rest without ugly gerrymanders. Add Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights - these are Jews, as much or more so than the bacon-on-matzo Russians. If you are creative, this would not be much less Jewish, if at all so, than the South Brooklyn version. Pack the rest w/ reliably democratic minority areas and bingo - a reliably Dem district with an Orthodox Jewish pack at its core ) Should be doable ))

that would not come close to half  in order to get to Crown Heights (all bunched up) for example you would have to take in way to many blacks which would never work with the voting rights act and would never take in enough jews to be worth it.  (Williamsburg would be possible if you use the east river)

There is no law that says ALL blacks should be in majority black districts )) Especially, if we are alleging that we are doing this to avoid disenfranchizing another minority ))

that argument didn't seem to work for jews before.
In addition the only way possible to make a compact majority Jewish district would be to include Brighton Beach and Manhattan Beach.  If you don't realize that it's probably because you have no clue where jews live in NY. 

[NY Jew]

Anyway, it is not hard to draw a district that would include the entire Borough Park, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Midwood Jewish parts of Williamsburg, Crown Heights, Flatbush, etc. - I even got the entire Gravesend and half the Homecrest in (Ocean Parkway is in all the way through to the Belt Parkway) that would be 66.5% Obama (72.1% Dem on average). It's only 9% black - no concern there. 12.9% Hispanic and 11.3% Asian - but you can't draw a Hispanic district from those parts anyway. There is still a lot of stuff I've included for no good reason to pad the Dem margin (such as Red Hook) that could be removed to replace w/ Jewish neighborhoods without making it less than 60% Obama. Of course, once you insist on including Brighton and Manhattan Beach, it would change - but why include those atheist ex-Commies )?

there are way more Orthodox shuls in Brighton Beach then in Park Slope

[NY Jew]

One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).

Do you really think that the Orthodox Jews would elect (Catholic) Turner if it were up to them? He'd loose a primary in any Orthodox-majority district before you can say "Jesus".

Partisan arguments can't be a problem: the courts have repeatedly ruled that it's ok to gerrymander for partisan ends. The problem is dilution of a racial/ethnic/other minority group for the purposes of preventing it from electing the candidate of their choice. It is hard to see how a district that maximizes the concentration of the target group (Orthodox Jews) could be wrong here. It is also hard to see how reducing the proportion of that group in the district (as would be the case in the South Brooklyn district as compared w/ the North-Central Brooklyn district) could help the Orthodox Jews elect the candidate of their choice that would not also be supported by some other major group. Of course, it is simply impossible to get a district in Brooklyn where Orthodox Jews would be able to elect candidate of their choice without them happening to coincide with some other, not Orthodox community - there are simply not enough of them (especially, if we just look at the voting age population).

That's why, any proposed "Orthodox Jewish" district would have to rely at least as strongly on other, non-Orthodox, or even non-Jewish groups to do the trick - the Russians, the Irish, the Italians or whatever. But at that point it becomes a matter of coalition building, not of electing a candidate of the Orthodox Jewish choice. In as much as "candidate of choice" seems to be an euthemism for "one of their own", this is going to fail outright - a proper Hasid won't get elected in such a district (many Russians would, probably, rather vote Dem, as would many of the other elements of this "Republican coalition"). Turner is certainly not one of them, and would not have been their choice if they could decide on their own.

Hence the difficulty with defining the "protected group". The Orthodox Jews simply are not numerous or concentrated enough for a district (unless one finds a way of linking Borough Park and Rockland county in one district ) ). Protecting Jews as such - a group that less than 4 years ago voted, what, 70% for Obama - would not seem to require drawing a Republican district; if anything, that would prevent the Jews at large from electing representatives of their choice. So NY Jew and his kind have invented a new "protected group": Republican Jews - which includes the Orthodox and the Russians (especially the first-generation immigrants among those), but excludes the bulk of the Jews in Manhattan, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, etc. For their purposes Bob Turner is a member of this group, while Woody Allen isn't. Fine by me - but they'd have to pursuade Justices Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan )))

1 this was a great map I would have moved more of Bensenhurst into it. besides Orthodox + Russian Jews are around 60% of NYC Jewish population.

[NY Jew]

But Sephardim are not so big in Brooklyn (though, of course, present), so, I guess, it is fine. So, the ultimate irony: the despised "jargon" would, probably, serve best as the identifier for the group to be protected )))

you do know that south of Jewish Flatbush is mostly Syrian.
 Brooklyn probably has more sefradiem then any other place outside of Israel
Syrian shuls in  Brooklyn (there are other sefardi groups) according to wikapedia (I think this missed a few)

    * Ahaba Ve Ahva, at 1744 Ocean Parkway between Kings Highway and Quentin Road, for Egyptian Jews. - Rabbi Shimon Alouf (Rosh Yeshiba of the Sephardic Rabbinical College).
    * Ahaba Ve Ahva Congregation and Yeshiva, at 2001 East 7th Street.
    * Ahi Ezer Congregation, at 1885 Ocean Parkway. The synagogue generally serves the Damascus or (Shami) Syrian community. - Rabbi Shaul Maslaton
    * Ahi Ezer Torah Center, at 1950 East 7th Street.
    * Ahi Ezer Yeshiva, a synagogue housed on the ground floor of the Ahi Ezer Elementary School, at 2433 Ocean Parkway. Originally built as an extension for Damascus (Shami) Jews, it currently has a mostly Egyptian attendance. - Rabbi Hanania Elbaz
    * Ateret Torah, at 901 Quentin Road, for Haredim. - Rabbi Yosef Harari Raful
    * Avenue O Synagogue or Ohel Yeshua VeSarah, at 808 Avenue O. - Rabbi Shemuel Beyda
    * Avenue U Synagogue, at 400 Avenue U.
    * Congregation Beth El, at 2181 East 3rd Street between Avenue U and Avenue V.
    * Bet Shaul U'Miriam, at 2208 Avenue S (Madison Neighborhood). - Rabbi David Cohen
    * Beth Torah, at 1061 Ocean Parkway (Midwood Neighborhood), founded by Albert Shalom. - Rabbi Yehuda A. Azancot
    * Bet Yaakob, now situated in the former Ahaba Ve Ahva synagogue, at 1801 Ocean Parkway. - Rabbi Eli Mansour
    * Beth Yosef, also known as Beth Levy, at 2108 Ocean Parkway (Gravesend Neighborhood).
    * Congregation Bnai Yosef, the Sitt Shul, at 1616 Ocean Parkway, on the corner of Avenue P. - Rabbi Haim Benoliel
    * Bnei Binyamin Torah Center, at 727 Avenue O. - Rabbi Solomon Seruya
    * Bnei Yitzhak, at 730 Avenue S. - Rabbi Harold Sutton (Rosh Yeshiba of the Magen David Yeshiva, and Rosh Kollel of the Sephardic Rabbinical College).
    * Bnei Yitzhak Annex, at 718 Avenue S.
    * Hesed Avraham, at 59 Gravesend Neck Road.
    * Har Halebanon, at 820 Avenue S. - Rabbi David Jemal and Rabbi Clem Harari
    * Hayim Shaal Congregation, at 1123 Avenue N (Midwood Neighborhood). - Rabbi Mordechai Maslaton
    * Keter Sion, at 1914 East 8th Street. - Rabbi Max Maslaton (son of Rabbi Sion Maslaton)
    * Kol Israel Congregation, at 3211 Bedford Avenue. - Rabbi Dr. Raymond Harari (Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Flatbush).
    * Kollel Ohel Moshe, also known as Rabbi Lankry's Synagogue, at 1848 East 7th Street between Avenue R and Kings Highway, for Moroccan Jews. - Rabbi Shlomo Lankry
    * Madison Torah Center, at 2221 Avenue R. - Rabbi Danny Tawil and Rabbi Shmuel Aini
    * Magen Abraham, housed in the former Torah Academy of Brooklyn high school, at 2066 East 9th Street.
    * Magen David Synagogue, housed in the Magen David Yeshivah, at 2130 McDonald Avenue. - Rabbi Joey Haber, Rabbi Haim Shaul and Rabbi Ikey Tawil
    * Netivot Israel Congregation, at 1617 Ocean Parkway, for Moroccan Jews. - Rabbi Gad Bouskila
    * Ohel Moshe, at Avenue P and East 16th Street. - Rabbi Moshe Levy
    * Ohr Hachaim, at 2286 Coney Island Avenue.
    * Rabbi Yehouda Ben Betera Congregation, at 2296 Coney Island Avenue, for Qamishli Jews. - Rabbi Marco Nakash
    * Sephardic Center of Mill Basin, at 6208 Strickland Avenue (Mill Basin Neighborhood). - Rabbi Abraham Levy
    * Sephardic Lebanese Congregation, at 805 Avenue T. - Rabbi Eliyahu Elbaz
    * Sephardic Synagogue, housed in the former Sephardic Institute, at 511 Avenue R. - Rabbi Moshe Shamah and Rabbi Ronald Barry
    * Shaare Rahamim, at 1244 East 7th Street (Midwood Neighborhood). - Rabbi Shlomo Churba
    * Shaare Shalom, at 2021 Avenue S (Madison Neighborhood). - Rabbi Joe Dweck (Rosh Yeshiba of Barkai Yeshiva)
    * Shaare Torah, at 1680 Coney Island Avenue (Midwood Neighborhood).
    * Shevet Achim Congregation, at 708 Avenue T, for Damascus (Shami) Jews. - Rabbi Yosheyahu Shammah and Rabbi Yosef Hamra
    * Shevet Achim Youth Congregation, at 706 Avenue T. - Cantor Chaim Leviov
    * Shuva Israel, at 2015 Avenue R.
    * Sukkat Daveed Congregation, at 807 Avenue T.
    * Tiferet Torah Congregation, on East 3rd Street between Avenue P and Quentin Road. - Rabbi Michael Haber
    * Congregation Torat Israel, at 710 Shore Boulevard (Manhattan Beach Neighborhood). - Rabbi Jacob Farhi
    * Congregation Yam Hatorah, at 1573 East 10th Street.
    * Yad Yosef Torah Center, at 1032 Ocean Parkway (Midwood Neighborhood). - Rabbi David Ozeri and Rabbi David Sutton

[NY Jew]

He agreed that gay marriage did indeed tank Welperin, allowing Turner to win.

more proof of Orthodox opposition to marriage.

keep in mind NYS state already passed marriage redefinition and congress didn't pass the disrespect for marriage act (so this senate election was seen somewhat as a statement) and Fidler wasn't Orthodox and never gave a speech (which hurt him even more then the marriage vote).

the 48th Ad overlap with the 27th SD was around 70% for Storobin. (he also won the rest of the Orthodox vote)

 from the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/nyregion/both-sides-declare-victory-in-bumpy-brooklyn-senate-race.html?_r=2

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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/nyregion/in-overtime-close-senate-election-shifts-to-the-vote-counters.html

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[NY Jew]

besides Orthodox + Russian Jews are around 60% of NYC Jewish population.

If that is true (and I would need a source), this would suggest that the two blocks together are fairly Democratic (which is not that surprising, since, once the younger Russian Jews move off the Brighton Beach, they tend to assimilate in the general secular Jewish population and start voting Dem). I haven't found the exit poll number for Jews in NY state in 2008, but for Jews nationwide the NYTimes exit poll shows that 78% of them voted for Obama (fairly typical numbers; the Jewish share of vote for the Dem presidential candiate in the last 5 cycles has oscillated between 74% for Kerry in 2004 and 80% for Clinton in 1992). About a quarter of US Jews lives in NY state, so, if most NY Jews, did not vote for Obama, this would imply that nearly 90% of the Jews outside of NY State voted for him. And it is not as if there were no Russians or Orthodox in the other 49 states. It simply seems implausible to assume anything other than most Jews in NY State reliably vote Dem in most elections. Drawing a Republican district to represent this "protected minority" seems a rather strange exercise.

Of course, there remains a possibility (that seems increasingly likely to me) that NY Jew is simply using the definition of Jewishness that excludes Woody Allen and the 3 Supreme Court Justices and includes Bob Turner. Thus, the minority to be protected is DEFINED to be "Jews who vote Republican and allies". Good luck defending that in court.

or the polls are way off because they underestimate the Orthodox and Russian (also Iranian ext.) vote's big. 




keep in mind this was 10 years ago and the demographics are getting much more Orthodox.
http://www.jewishdatabank.org/Archive/C-NY-New_York-2002-Main_Report.pdf
185,700 Russian speaking Jews in NYC
331,200 Orthodox Jews in NYC
972,000 Jews in NYC

[NY Jew]

besides Orthodox + Russian Jews are around 60% of NYC Jewish population.

If that is true (and I would need a source), this would suggest that the two blocks together are fairly Democratic (which is not that surprising, since, once the younger Russian Jews move off the Brighton Beach, they tend to assimilate in the general secular Jewish population and start voting Dem). I haven't found the exit poll number for Jews in NY state in 2008, but for Jews nationwide the NYTimes exit poll shows that 78% of them voted for Obama (fairly typical numbers; the Jewish share of vote for the Dem presidential candiate in the last 5 cycles has oscillated between 74% for Kerry in 2004 and 80% for Clinton in 1992). About a quarter of US Jews lives in NY state, so, if most NY Jews, did not vote for Obama, this would imply that nearly 90% of the Jews outside of NY State voted for him. And it is not as if there were no Russians or Orthodox in the other 49 states. It simply seems implausible to assume anything other than most Jews in NY State reliably vote Dem in most elections. Drawing a Republican district to represent this "protected minority" seems a rather strange exercise.

Of course, there remains a possibility (that seems increasingly likely to me) that NY Jew is simply using the definition of Jewishness that excludes Woody Allen and the 3 Supreme Court Justices and includes Bob Turner. Thus, the minority to be protected is DEFINED to be "Jews who vote Republican and allies". Good luck defending that in court.

or the polls are way off because they underestimate the Orthodox and Russian vote's big. 

Any reason to believe that? Unless, of course, the Orthodox and the Russians are somehow ashamed of their anti-Jewish behavior and refuse to answer the pollsters, that is )

In any case, for the moment we do not have a shred of evidence that most NY Jews would prefer electing Republican to electing a Democrat, but definite evidence that it is the other way around. Until polls and exit polls start showing that it is the other way around, why exactly would anyone decide that they, as a group, would need a Republican district in Brooklyn?

This is even if we forget, that the current congressional delegation from New York already has at least 5 Jewish congressmen and a Jewish Senator, most of them elected w/ overwhelming Jewish support. Drawing a district that would reliably elect a Republican Catholic to the dismay of most NY State Jews (the latter according to the best available evidence) seems a very interesting way of letting the Jews elect a candidate of their choice.

To sum up, it seems increasingly clear, that NY Jew does NOT want Jews as such to be the protected minority. As there is no way of drawing together the Orthodox (both Sefardic and Ashkenazic) and the Russians to the exclusion of the secular American Jewish population into any community based on anything other than their shared support of the Republican party (based to a significant extent, let us be honest, on dislike of blacks and other racial minorities), it is equally clear that the group he would like to protect are the Republican Jews.

why don't you look at who they vote for in elections (in areas where they are the majority) that might be a better indicator then exit polls.  there is no way in the world that the calculated for all the heavy McCain Jewish neighborhoods throughout the country.
I'll be shocked if McCain didn't win the NYC Jewish vote.  most Orthodox and Russian jews don't want to speak to pollsters.

[NY Jew]

This is even if we forget, that the current congressional delegation from New York already has at least 5 Jewish congressmen and a Jewish Senator, most of them elected w/ overwhelming Jewish support. Drawing a district that would reliably elect a Republican Catholic to the dismay of most NY State Jews (the latter according to the best available evidence) seems a very interesting way of letting the Jews elect a candidate of their choice.

Which current jewish congressmen was elected with overwhelming Jewish support in their last election?


in 2002 according to the federation there are in zip codes (with a much bigger general population then Cony Island) 11201, 11231, 11217, 11215 there 27,000 jews (and I'm sure much less now)
in the Cony Island one of the areas you want to take out zip codes 11224 and 11235 there are 54,500 jews


the only way to actually make a jewish majority compact district would be to combine the Orthodox and Russian and and leave out the non Orthodox/Russian jews there aren't enough of them to include them in the district and they are not the majority in any area in the city.  the only way possible to get a majority jewish compact district is to do something similar to what the Orthodox group did.  taking out Geristan Beach for example and putting in parts of Bensehurst would make this more jewish and more Orthodox and Russian though (not sure why they didn't do that as GB has more in common with the catholic district)

[NY Jew]

BTW, even if I believe the Jewish databank data (btw, interestingly enough, you exclude the NYState Jews outside the city - why, may I inquire? they are about 40% of the total, if I am not much mistaken; or do you think that the protected community should be Republican Jews in NYCity?) you forget that a) Russians outside of Brighton Beach are a lot less Republican (probably, in fact, substantially Democratic, as they quickly become American Jews) and, in the absence of recent massive Russian immigration they, as a community are becoming less and less distinct from the general secular Jewish population (even if they don't move to Jersey ) ) and  b) Orthodox families have lots of kids - these are not voting age and would not be voting for a while.

In any case, it would be a coherent position that Orthodox Jews are a distinct cultural community that should be protected - but there are not enough of the Orthodox for an Orthodox majority district (forget about VAP), and certainly not enough of them for an Orthodox majority district in Brooklyn. It would be a coherent position that Jews (or, at least, Ashkenazic Jews) should be protected as a whole - but these are still mostly Democratic by all the evidence we have. It's NOT a coherent position to ask to protect the Orthodox and the Russians together, to the exclusion of the rest.

be cause they are not compact by any measure of the word the only compact jewish areas are Jewish minority's.  There is no way to make a majority Jewish district that Jews voted majority for McCain the only way to make it vote for McCain it is to make a ugly gerrymander to include enough non jewish votes. and most likely would not work in with the voting rights act.

Just for the record I think all Jews should be included but since there is no where else in the country besides southern Brooklyn that there can be a compact Jewish majority district that makes your whole argument mute

[NY Jew]

Well, if there are lots of Sefardim in the Orthodox block, that makes it worse: they can't be part of the same linguistic minority, as they don't speak Yiddish. They can't be part of the same religious minority, because it is not protectable. That leaves the racial designation, which is both borderline anti-semitic and not even very certain to succeed, as it is pretty hard to identify them w/ the Ashkenazim in any way that is not reliant on religion. Tough - I guess, any arguments relying on the joint numbers of Sefardim and Ashkenazim might not be allowable.

A coalition district?  Do Sefardim and Ashenazim vote for different candidates in contested primaries?

the only time I ever saw a difference was in a closely contested city council race and that candidate had other Orthodox support.

[NY Jew]

Again, there is no reason to create a "majority Jewish" district to elect congressmen that would be rejected by a large majority of NY State Jews. I could see a reason to create a district for the ultra-Orthodox, if they were sufficiently numerous in a compact area - but the are not, at least not yet. Joining the Russians and the Orthodox serves no identifiable objective, except electing a Republican congressman and, perhaps, spiting most NY Jews, who would be opposed to creation of such a district. There are 5 Jewish congressmen currently that are elected in NY State, and there is every reason to believe that they got an overwhelming majority of the Jewish vote in their districts, which represent a substantial proportion of NY State Jewish population. That most voters in those districts were not Jewish is NOT an argument in support of segregating Jews in "Jewish" districts: as it is, Jewish voters elect the representatives of their choice. That a minority of the Jewish voting public is unhappy is undeniable - but that is not a legal reason to do anything.

I am coming to believe that you are an archetypal "self-hating Jew". You happen to sincerely dislike most of your fellow-tribesmen and prefer to invent your own idea of a Jewish-American, that has little to do w/ reality, at least of today. Well, the Woody Allens, and not the Bob Turners, are still the Jews you have to deal with, if you are talking of NY Jewry.

Noach Dear could run in that district as a democrat and easily get 70% of the vote.

[NY Jew]

Again, there is no reason to create a "majority Jewish" district to elect congressmen that would be rejected by a large majority of NY State Jews. I could see a reason to create a district for the ultra-Orthodox, if they were sufficiently numerous in a compact area - but the are not, at least not yet. Joining the Russians and the Orthodox serves no identifiable objective, except electing a Republican congressman and, perhaps, spiting most NY Jews, who would be opposed to creation of such a district. There are 5 Jewish congressmen currently that are elected in NY State, and there is every reason to believe that they got an overwhelming majority of the Jewish vote in their districts, which represent a substantial proportion of NY State Jewish population. That most voters in those districts were not Jewish is NOT an argument in support of segregating Jews in "Jewish" districts: as it is, Jewish voters elect the representatives of their choice. That a minority of the Jewish voting public is unhappy is undeniable - but that is not a legal reason to do anything.

I am coming to believe that you are an archetypal "self-hating Jew". You happen to sincerely dislike most of your fellow-tribesmen and prefer to invent your own idea of a Jewish-American, that has little to do w/ reality, at least of today. Well, the Woody Allens, and not the Bob Turners, are still the Jews you have to deal with, if you are talking of NY Jewry.

well considering Nadler lost Brighton Beach, Flatbush and Borough Park and based on what I know about the upper West Side I know he was hit hardest by Jews there I would wager he lost the Jewish vote.

Engel, Ackerman probably won the Jewish vote but the Jewish vote% was probably much smaller then their total vote%
Lowey and Israel fit your description.