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republicanism
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Posts: 412
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« on: September 15, 2011, 08:55:08 AM »


Of course in a rational society when millions are out of work, while other millions suffer from burnout, backache or sleep-shortage due to overlong working time, we would redistribute work in a way that allows us to produce the same amount of goods and services with a 20hour-week for everyone.

But since the capitalist economy's goal is not the satisfaction of needs, but the production of abstract wealth, this is impossible.
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republicanism
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Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2011, 09:36:27 AM »
« Edited: September 19, 2011, 12:10:26 PM by republicanism »

I'm afraid that's just laughably wrong. You can't redistribute work like that.

If it is technically possible is arguably.
But you will agree with me that the way work is distributed today is anything but rational, and that, if possible, we should organize it in another way. Not?

Also, talking about the capitalist economy's goal makes no sense. What happens in a free market is the result of agents in that market trying to satisfy their preferences.

The fact that we produce for a market is just the substantiation of what I said: A player in a market economy doesn't think "What / How much do people need?" but "What / How much can I sell?"

The bum down the street is the living example.
While it is absolutely no problem to produce enough food for all of us (in fact, we produce a lot more than we need, and through away tons and tons of it), he is hungry.
Because he can't pay. So his needs are not satisfied. He is economically nonexistent.

Commodification is the only thing that matters, and not satisfaction of needs, and that's my point.

Apparently, peoples' preferences seem to be for a 40-hour work week, given the various constraints that exist.

Sure. Everyone is a player in the game.
You won't here stupid moralist stuff like "Uh, the bad capitalists force people to do xyz..." from me.

The capitalist economy that you so despise has led to people being more satisfied now than they have ever been anywhere in human history.

Capitalism has indeed produced more wealth and a higher standard of living than every pre-capitalist economy. Only a fool would deny that (some self declared "socialists" actually do...).

But that doesn't change the fact that the satisfaction of needs is in no way the goal of capitalism, but a fall-out in it's process of productivity increase.
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republicanism
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Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 09:43:09 AM »

Also the idea that our economy should be modeled after what makes us happiest is ridiculous

Interesting statement.

What do you think should it be modeled after instead?
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republicanism
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Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 12:11:12 AM »

First off, people who are unemployed can't easily replace the people who work. The 35-year old high school dropout with an alcohol problem can't just jump in and share the workload of the investment banker working 80 hours per week. In the West many of the people who are unemployed are so because they lack skills demanded in the market.

Secondly, even to the extent that people do have the right skills work isn't an infinitely divisible mass. If I invest 20 hours in reading up on the election of 1976 I'll be the only one able to invest another 20 hours in writing a summary of it. I can't share that job with someone else. Nor could I easily have shared the reading. A lot of jobs in the modern economy has these properties.

Thirdly, there are many fixed costs involved in an employee, such as commuter time, having an office, etc. These costs make it inefficient to share jobs between a lot of people.

These are good points. Of course I thought about that myself. I have some ideas on it, but I can't put that in words now. Not in English, and not this morning. But you will get an answer on this part, I promise Smiley

Now, I'm not so arrogant as to think that everyone else in the world has failed at rationally organizing work whereas I alone have found the golden path to paradise. If it actually were more efficient to divide work between more people I suspect some of the many companies struggling to get ahead in the market would be doing it.


It is not that this ideas are mine (they are about 150 years old), nor did I claim to have found the golden path.

And your second sentence is just wrong: What is efficient for a company has not to be efficient for society as a whole. Producing handguns or crystal meth is an extremely inefficient thing for society, but it is nice cash for the market player who produces it.
So, if market players don't do certain things does not mean that those things wouldn't be great from a society perspective.
This is a common mistake of market liberals / libertarians.

As regards how a market works, you seem to be mixing up different things. An agent in the market doesn't think "how much can I sell." He or she thinks "how can I best satisfy my preferences" Most people have preferences such as having a house or food and to obtain that they must have money. To have money they must work (thus, sell their labour services). Thus, they work. They don't sell as much as possible, because most people also value leisure time.


Sure. But they have to take part in the system to satisfy their preferences, and the system functions under certain rules.

For example, of course you do not work 40h a day to satisfy your preferences in a concrete sense. The value of your work is much higher than that. But you don't get all the value of your work paid, the employer keeps some of it.

This very fact makes pretty clear that capitalism is not just a simple interchange of preferences, but that other dynamics are involved.

It is true of course that the agents typically don't consider how to satisfy the needs of everyone else. They might not aim to satisfy the preferences of the bum on the street. That might be a moral failure of human beings, but it's hardly the system failing to satisfy preferences.
 

No! It is not a moral failure of humans, it is the system. Even if it breaks the bakers' heart every single morning to see the bum hungry on the street in front of his bakery, he can't give away his goods to him for free (he could do it once or twice, but not on a regular basis) because that would hurt his market position. And that is the cruelty of the system.

The capitalist system does not really have a goal. People have goals and these goals tend to involve satisfying their preferences by selling something in the market. If people preferred not doing that there is nothing inherent in capitalism forcing it upon them.
 

The goal is to produce (abstract) wealth by any means. Doesn't matter if you produce hand grenades or baby toys, porn movies or cancer pills. It has to grow.
Example: If a societies' abstract wealth does not grow anymore, it is called "crisis".
This is not a crisis in producing goods and services, like a bad harvest in earlier times. There are the same machines, the same skilled workers, the same natural ressources, the same infrastructure to produce everything people need as they were before the crisis.
It is just a crisis in making money of the goods and services produced. Sales crisis, overproduction crisis are a joke in its self, if you come to think of it.

Of course, not everyone gets everything they want. Then again, I think more people are getting what they want to a larger extent now than ever before. And in my book, that is a good thing.

Oh, no disagreement here. The capitalist society is a great improvement compared with any pre-capitalist society, as I already mentioned I think. But that does not mean that the evolution of human societies should end here.
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republicanism
Jr. Member
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Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 02:38:02 AM »

One of the golden rules of economics: We cannot legislate away the laws of supply and demand.

Of course we can.
And we do in several areas of society. For example, firehouses and schools are not built and kept on the base of supply and demand.
And although you Americans seem to be afraid of that idea, in many countries the same is true for railway lines and hospitals.

It is just a political decision. The market is man-made, it is not a supernatural power.
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republicanism
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 01:46:37 PM »

One of the golden rules of economics: We cannot legislate away the laws of supply and demand.

Of course we can.
And we do in several areas of society. For example, firehouses and schools are not built and kept on the base of supply and demand.
And although you Americans seem to be afraid of that idea, in many countries the same is true for railway lines and hospitals.

It is just a political decision. The market is man-made, it is not a supernatural power.

How are they not built on supply-and-demand?

You don't built a firehous because there is well-funded demand for it, but when it is needed. Not?
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republicanism
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 01:49:02 PM »

One of the golden rules of economics: We cannot legislate away the laws of supply and demand.

Of course we can.
And we do in several areas of society. For example, firehouses and schools are not built and kept on the base of supply and demand.
And although you Americans seem to be afraid of that idea, in many countries the same is true for railway lines and hospitals.

It is just a political decision. The market is man-made, it is not a supernatural power.

That is not really relevant to the issue here. It is not as if we have done away with supply and demand merely because we have some public financing of certain services.

I was just arguing against the idea that supply and demand are some kinds of law of nature.
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republicanism
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 412
Germany


« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 12:29:34 PM »

Well...it depends on how you define law of nature. It is true that if you, for example, lower prices artificially there will be over-demand/under-supply.

But you don't have to organize eeverything based on prices. Schools, Police, etc. are not organized that way.

And to your example with the Stockholm rents: I'm not arguing that without supply-and-demand in action, everything would be fine. But there is no superior force that implements "the law", that men have to follow. The market is man-made.
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