Man Arrested in Wales for Preaching Christianity

[Bono]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/5388626.stm

Anti-gay leaflets charge dropped

A Christian campaigner has been cleared of using threatening words and behaviour when handing out leaflets at a gay and lesbian event in Cardiff.

Stephen Green, 55, said he may take legal action after a court case against him was dropped for lack of evidence.

Mr Green, from Carmarthen, is the national director of the evangelical lobby group Christian Voice.

South Wales Police have insisted they were right to arrest Mr Green.

Supporters of Mr Green shouted "Hallelujah!" and clapped at Cardiff Magistrates Court as a legal adviser announced the Crown Prosecution Service's decision not to proceed with the case.

He was arrested when he refused to stop handing out leaflets at the entrance to Cardiff's Mardi Gras gay and lesbian festival in Bute Park earlier this month, which was attended by around 40,000 people.

The leaflets quoted the Bible and that told gays: "Turn from your sins and you will be saved."

He was held in a police station for four hours and was charged with using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress after he refused to accept a caution from the force's Minorities Support Unit.

'Blasphemous'

Mr Green denied the charge, claiming his freedom of speech was being infringed. After the case, he described his arrest as "a big wake-up call to evangelists".

The father-of-one said his treatment on the day of the festival was "disgraceful" and promised he would return to the next festival with even more supporters.

He said: "The police should concentrate on nicking villains instead of people like me going about my lawful business.

"It is important that Christians should be able to stand up for the Gospel and resist any attempt by the police to trample our civil rights.

"I'm quite pleased the CPS had the good sense to drop this case at an early stage. The police should never have arrested me in the first place, let alone charged me."

Mr Green had previously protested at the city's Wales Millennium Centre outside performances of Jerry Springer: The Opera, claiming it was blasphemous.

'Vulnerable'

Mr Green's solicitor, Mark Williams, said he regarded his client's arrest at the Mardi Gras as "an abuse of police powers" and said they would be taking action in the civil courts.

South Wales Police force has defended its handling of the case, saying the CPS decison not to go ahead with the presecution of Mr Green due to insufficient evidence did not "challenge the legality" of his arrest.

It added that the force had a "proven record" of supporting the freedom of expression in facilitating marches and demonstrations over many years.

Deputy Chief Constable David Francis said: "Equally, we are very proud of our stand on supporting and protecting the most vulnerable in our communities, especially those who are the victims of prejudice and discrimination, harassment and even hatred."

[Bono]

Does anybody else see the irony in somebody from a minority group (i.e. an actual Christian in the UK) being arrested by the Minorities Support Unit of the police force?

Christians aren't a minority in the U.K. Church-going Christians are o/c, and have been for a very long time; I think, as far as recent centuries go, only in parts of the 19th century did a majority of the population go to Church on more than a few days of the year.

I disagree. Even not going to church every Sunday, a person can be a Christian, in the sense of the word. however, how many of the people in the UK that claim to be CHristian actually believe any tenets of Christianity? How many of them would indentify with the apostles crede, for instance--which is a good standard? Not many, I daresay. Face it, the Uk is a post-christian nation.

[Bono]

I think we're all essentially agreeing that sincere Christians in the UK are a minority.  That was my original point, by the way.

I know, I'm agreeing with you. Disagreeing with Al.

[Bono]

How many of them would indentify with the apostles crede, for instance--which is a good standard?

No, I don't think the apostles creed is a good "standard".  I may agree with what is says, but I would not identify myself with it.

Why not?

[Bono]

How many of them would indentify with the apostles crede, for instance--which is a good standard?

No, I don't think the apostles creed is a good "standard".  I may agree with what is says, but I would not identify myself with it.

Why not?

Because the bible is the only standard of the faith.  So even if I agree with everything in a creed, I would not use a creed as a litmus test for myself or anyone else.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Bible is of course the only authority in matters of faith. However, I think a correct creed is a useful instrument for summing up the essential tennets of Christianity. For instance, Jehova's Witnesses believe in biblical authority--or at least the authority of their so called "translation"--but I don't think either of us would consider them Christians. A creed is just a means to an end, but when it accurately reflects scripture, it can be an useful tool, and for statistical purposes it would serve pretty well.

[Bono]

Jesus did not give me a creed to distinguish Christians from the world, but he did leave me this limit test: “You shall know them by their fruits” (Mat 7:16) 

.

Unfortunately, that isn't really that practical for statistic purposes. I picked the apostles creed especifically because it is the simplest. Of course, you can simply ask people of they're Christians, but that's not really that good, becasue Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons will tell you they are Christians. In the end, you can't have an accurate statistical measure.

[Bono]

Jesus did not give me a creed to distinguish Christians from the world, but he did leave me this limit test: “You shall know them by their fruits” (Mat 7:16) 

Unfortunately, that isn't really that practical for statistic purposes. I picked the apostles creed especifically because it is the simplest. Of course, you can simply ask people of they're Christians, but that's not really that good, becasue Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons will tell you they are Christians. In the end, you can't have an accurate statistical measure.

First, I don’t know why you need to take a census.  What purpose does it serve?

Second, these creeds do little more than cause divisions.  In fact, their sole purpose is to exclude those that refuse to agree with the semantics.

There is a parable covering this topic:

The Parable of the Weeds
 24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
      "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
The translation is a little lost in the NIV.  Instead of “weeds” it is really “tares” that look very much like wheat and can be confused as wheat (and wheat can be confused by tares).

The lesson is simple:  stop trying to separate good Christians from bad Christians, for your process of separation will not be perfect and you will end up destroying the good…which is why I don’t like denominations.

The statistical thing was the original topic. We were talking about aproximately how many people in the UK are christians. And anyways, I just used the Apostles Creed as an example, it was nothing set in stone.

By the way, one day when I have time, we're going to have a talk about your perfectionist pelagian tendencies.

I had to look that up: "Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did NOT taint human nature"

Don’t know why you think I would believe that, for I have repeatedly stated on this forum that I believe mankind took on a sinful nature when Adam and Eve sinned.  And that sinful nature was passed on to all their descendents.  That is why I believe homosexuality is completely “natural” for it stems from the sinful nature.  I believe all sins are products of our sinful nature.  We are all predisposed from birth to sin as a result of Adam’s transgression.

Well, I probably should have siad semi-pelagian. Anyways, note the perfectionist qualifier before. I deleted that sentence because I thought it wasn't rreally warranted here, but since you still quoted it, what I meant is that from your posts I seem to get that you defend--and correct me if I'm wrong in my assertion that you believe this--that you believe that after regeneration--being born again if you will, though I'm not a fan of this term--the christian is capable of avoid sinning completely. I believe that while the amount of sin is going to be decreased, and good works will be brought forth by faith, the saved person will still sin, and sin most serious and grieviously even, because of the weakness of the flesh. However, more than anything, the regenerate has the notion of his sin and the need for repentance.

[Bono]

The statistical thing was the original topic. We were talking about aproximately how many people in the UK are christians. And anyways, I just used the Apostles Creed as an example, it was nothing set in stone.

ok, I understand now.

---

correct me if I'm wrong in my assertion that you believe this--that you believe that after regeneration--being born again if you will, though I'm not a fan of this term--the christian is capable of avoid sinning completely. I believe that while the amount of sin is going to be decreased, and good works will be brought forth by faith, the saved person will still sin, and sin most serious and grieviously even, because of the weakness of the flesh. However, more than anything, the regenerate has the notion of his sin and the need for repentance.

Why take issue with the "born again" term when Jesus used it himself?

As far as being "capable of avoid sinning completely"...yes, I believe born-again Christians have the "capability" through the Holy Spirit to avoid any and every sin.  Does Christ set believers free or does he not?

But no one practices everything they preach or believe, and they will eventually choose to follow their own desires from time to time and will have to repent and come back to Christ.  But I do think it is quite possible to go 24 hours without sinning.  But each 24 hours brings a new day and we must crucify our flesh DAILY:

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

1Cor 15:31 “I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

So, since we are still in the flesh, we have to deny it daily.

What I striking contrast to the message spoken by TV preachers who tell their audience everything in life will be peaches and cream if they just send in more money. 

I think the key passage here is:

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.  Romans 7:13-25 (All quotes from the New American Standard Bible[I finally dropped the KJV, you should be happy])

Some say here that Paul is only talking about the struggle of unbelievers. But before (Romans 6:1-7:12) he talks about the way he felt when he was an unbeliever, and says that back then he saw no spiritual problem with his life. Only when the Holy Spirit opened his eyes did he realize the sin within. paul is showing us two principles working here: the principle of righteousnessm which wants him to live a holy life, and the principle of sin. this when he is a believer.

This same conflict is also present in Paul's letter to the Galatians. In 5:16-17 he compares walking by the Spirit with carrying out the desires of the flesh.

  16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
  17. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

The Bible speaks elsewhere clearly against perfectionism:

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

This shows us that believers still sin. Also Paul in his letter to the Philippians rules out any imagined moral perfection:

  12. Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
  13. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
  14. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12-14

Usually, people who imagine themselves to be able to attain perfection in this life do so by adopting a low view of sin. This comes from a deficit view of the holiness of God. When the Isaiah saw the Sovereign King of Glory, he saw no moral perfection in himself,

    Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

None of this is to say we should not repent and endeavour to sin less, but simply to say that in this life it is not possible. I myself, even being saved, struggle a lot with sin--I am the first to admit this.

By the way, I completely agree with you about televangelists.

[Bono]

Bono, I agree with everything you posted, I even agree that Rom 6:1 - 7:12 refers to life after receiving the Holy Spirit, so I am not sure you were trying to refute what I posted or are just merely agreeing with it.

My point was that it IS possible not to sin when you have the Holy Spirit, as the following verse that you posted points out:

Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

Which is what Jesus himself stated, John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Does that mean any born-again Christian will continuously choose to be free?  No, of course not, for "a dog returns to its vomit" (Pro 26:11; 2Pet 2:22).

As you can tell, I don't place any undue burdens on Christians, but neither do I wink at sin.  But it is possible to go 24 hours without sinning.  It is possible to lay your head down on your pillow at the end of the day knowing that for a brief period of time, you didn't fail.  But tomorrow will also bring another day and another chance to return to your vomit.

Probably--but does that really matter? it's just an arbitrary line. I coud say we can go without sinning for one minute, or one hour, or one week, or exactly 35 hours, 44 minutes and 27 seconds, but would it really matter? My point of contentin is that it's consistently impossible--except perhaps for someone being regenerated--or born again if you will--right on the deathbed, and even then I have my doubts--to avoid sin continually and never commit it after recieving the Holy Spirit? I say no, Holy Spirit or not. This is especially true of sins that merely involve thought.

By the way, you may want to reply to this thread: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=46585.15

[Bono]

Yeah, it matters, for if a Christian can't go without sinning for one minute, or even one hour, then maybe they didnt' meet the Christ I met.  And I am not saying that to be mean or judgmental, but you need to examine yourself to see whether or not you actually have control over your flesh.

Is that a general you or a specific you?
Anyways, I never said I couldn't go for one minute or an hour without sinning. I just said that as a sinful homan, I experience struggles with sin.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't see how that perfectionism is compatible with Paul's statement in Philippians 3:12-14 that he had no perfection, and with John's in 1 John 1:8-10 that if we claim to have no sin, we are make a liar of God. Of course I agree that the spirit will lead to an increasing santification, but that is not to say that people will not lapse for some time, or will suddenly be rid of all sinful impulses. That is simply not possible with our sinful bodies. We must strive to avoid sin and have that goal present in our minds, but knowing that being completely holy is impossible. To put in other words, the law is a way of life, not a way to life. When Paul syas that we are fre from the bondage of sin, he clearly doesn't mean that we have no sin, for he himself stated to the contrary several other times. We are free from the condemnation of sin demanded by God's justice. The law demands that sinners die, eternally and spiritually. But Jesus paid the price in place of his people. So believers are set free from the horrors of damnation which they deserve. We are also set free from the disposition that always inclines us away from honoring God. In our lost condition we are unable to do anything truly good. No unredeemed person is motivated by a love of the true God and directed to his glory. But in Christ we are set free from that evil master, and bound to a love for righteousness. We are made able to do truly good things for God's glory. But still not for our own merit. We never contribute to our redemption. Jesus alone does that.
However, while we are in one sense free, we are in one sense still bound--by the ongoing influence of sin in our lives.



When I am faced with despair for my own sin, I am best to keep in mind the words of Romans 8:28-39:

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
         "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
         WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Why would you doubt that someone receiving the Holy Spirit on their deathbed could not keep from sinning until death?


[/quote]
Well, depends on how long it would be before death I guess. If it wasn't much time, he probably wouldn't sin--though it is possible, of course.

[Bono]

You can NOT continuously live in the state described in chapter 7 and be saved, for then you would have overcome nothing.  Rather you have to take the solution mentioned in Rom 7:25 and gain control over your flesh as described in Chapter 8.

I don't see how that perfectionism is compatible with Paul's statement in...

How, exactly, is my statement "perfectionism"?
[/quote]

Your statemtn isn't. YOur doctrine is.

[Bono]

Your statement isn't. Your doctrine is.

And I pray you tell me how I am supposed to respond to that.

Forget it. Call it what you want. By perfectionism I mean that doctrine that moral perfection is consistently attainable. That is more often than not--but not necesarily-- connected with legalism, that is, any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God.

1You foolish (A)Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ (B)was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by (C)hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Galatians 3:1-3

[Bono]

I think the problem here is that you have a very low view of what constitutes sin. if you take sin to be the mere very visible, outward acts of drunkeness, stealing, etc, then  I can perfectly agree with you that it is possible to overcome them. However, I think sin is much more than that. Now for this we have to define sin.
I believe that the law is composed of three different sets of rules--one moral law, one judicial law, and one cerimonial law. I believe the cerimonial law is now abrogated under the New Testament and that the judicial law expired together with the State of that people. However, the moral law binds all forever, justified or not, to its obedience:

Romans 13:8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for (A)he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, "(B)YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "(C)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore (D)love is the fulfillment of the law.
 
1 John 2:3(A)By this we know that we have come to (B)know Him, if we (C)keep His commandments.4The one who says, "(D)I have come to (E)know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a (F)liar, and (G)the truth is not in him;5but whoever (H)keeps His word, in him the (I)love of God has truly been perfected (J)By this we know that we are in Him:6the one who says he (K)abides in Him (L)ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.7(M)Beloved, I am (N)not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had (O)from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.8On the other hand, I am writing (P)a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because (Q)the darkness is passing away and (R)the true Light is already shining.

The gospel does not dissolve, but rather strengthens this obligation:

Matthew 5: 17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (A)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, (B)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (C)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 3:31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? (A)May it never be! On the contrary, we (B)establish the Law.

I do not mean by this that we are justified under the law, but that we should follow it as a set of infallible moral rules.

Now that it is established where we can look for to define sin, let us turn to the practical aplications of this:
For there not to be any sin, we must be perfect in our obedience to the law--the soul must be perfectly pure and entirely without sin. This because the law requires not only actual moral perfection, but habitual as well. IF you can achieve this perfection, to be cleansed of all impurity, then you have answered a question posited by Solomon in a way that no one ever was, "9(A)Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart,I am pure from my sin"?" (Proverbs 20:9).
You must also obey the law broadly, internally and externally. In their totallity. A vain thought, or idle word, and there is sin. for we are required, "And He said to him, " '(A)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'" (Matthew 22:37). If any of the degree of love expresed there is lacking for one second, if each part of your obedience be not brought up to the greatest height commanded, that want is a sin.

James 2:10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet (A)stumbles in one point, he has become (B)guilty of all.11For He who said, "(C)DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "(D)DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Now this is not to deny the regeneration on those saved. On the contrary, I  declare that upon regeneration, the elect are sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the lusts of the body are more and more weakened and mortified; and they become more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces. This santification is gradual and on an upward trend, but there may be stumblings. However, in this life it must be imperfect:

1 John 1:10(A)If we say that we have not sinned, we (B)make Him a liar and (C)His word is not in us.

James 3:2For we all (A)stumble in many ways (B)If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a (C)perfect man, able to (D)bridle the whole body as well.

Ecclesiastes 7:20Indeed, (A)there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

Galatians 5:17For (A)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (B)so that you may not do the things that you please.

Philippians 3:12Not that I have already (A)obtained it or have already (B)become perfect, but I press on so that I may (C)lay hold of that for which also I (D)was laid hold of by (E)Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?

I bolded that verse becuse it is very important for the point I am going to make. Paul imputes the sin which is still present in the regenerated on the sinful flesh, which conflicts with the regenerated soul. This sets the field for the victory against sin--which I believe will happen at the last day when we are given incorruptible bodies. There and only there will we be able to fully avoid sin, and through the Spirit, finally triumph over it:

Ephesians 4:13until we all attain to (A)the unity of the faith, and of the (B)knowledge of the Son of God, to a (C)mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the (D)fullness of Christ.

Hebrews 12:23to the general assembly and (A)church of the firstborn who (B)are enrolled in heaven, and to God, (C)the Judge of all, and to the (D)spirits of the righteous made perfect,

1 John 3:2(A)Beloved, now we are (B)children of God, and (C)it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He (D)appears, we will be (E)like Him, because we will (F)see Him just as He is.

Jude 1:24(A)Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to (B)make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with (C)great joy,


Peace, and Soli Deo Gloria.