Arctic Ice Cap melting

[John Dibble]

Once it's sufficiently melted we'll have an ice age - problem solved.

[John Dibble]

What is it with all these f'ing sh**tballs that don't know their basic physics.  Take a cup, fill it 1/2 with water, put 5 ice cubes in it, measure the water level, wait for the ice cubes to melt, and look where the water level is.

What happened?

Thats right folks, it DROPPED.  Yes, yes, yes, the myth is true, ice is less dense than water...

While I don't believe in global warming to the extent of the doomsday ranters, I am going to have to correct you here - the ice caps aren't just floating pieces of ice, they are actually on landmass. If the ice was all floating in the ocean, your point would stand, but the fact is that much of the ice that they are talking about actually is on land - meaning that if it all did melt then it would probably increase the ocean depth a bit. (how much I'm not sure)

However, it wouldn't get to that point in all likeliness - the more ice that melts, the more fresh water that is introduced into the oceans. Ice has no salt in it. If you have a tool that measures salinity of water, you can do an experiment by taking some salt water, measuring salinity, then putting it into the freezer for an hour, remove the frozen water, and measure salinity of the remaining water - it'll be greater than before because the ice will have left it's salt behind. Why does this matter? The thermohaline cycle, which moves warm air currents northward, would become weaker when the fresh water is introduced and we'd have an ice age(so the ice would build back up again).

[John Dibble]

While I don't believe in global warming to the extent of the doomsday ranters, I am going to have to correct you here - the ice caps aren't just floating pieces of ice, they are actually on landmass.

Because of the VAST continent that covers the North Pole.  Right.

Much of the ice is in the water and over water.  The North Pole area is covered in ice and covers the North Sea for many thousands of square miles.

Well, for one thing there are two ice caps - Antartica is pretty vast if you haven't notice. For second, why the hell are you being rude - be intellectually honest: The ice caps aren't just floating pieces of ice, parts of them do cover land. The ice floating in the ocean melting won't increase the ocean levels - I never once disputed that - but if the ice covering land melts then it will. Simple scientific fact.

[John Dibble]

Dont deny that the sea level is rising, Richius, because it is. Just ask the folks living in the Mississippi delta or the good citizens of Tuvalu. Nations in the south pacific are scared sh!tless about Global warming (or climate change, if you will) because of the sea level rising, and they are aleady seeing the effects.

I'm not exactly sure that we should change the entire industrial production society of the planet for the sake of the 11,500 residents of Tuvalu. 

I'm sorry, but if I have to make a choice between our current society and the continuence of Tuvalu, Tuvalu loses.

You've just described the biggest source of world problems. People just don't care. 

Other sources of problems are people caring so much they accept anything the media or some guy in a labcoat tells them.

Just remember to take things with a grain of salt.

[John Dibble]

Dont deny that the sea level is rising, Richius, because it is. Just ask the folks living in the Mississippi delta or the good citizens of Tuvalu. Nations in the south pacific are scared sh!tless about Global warming (or climate change, if you will) because of the sea level rising, and they are aleady seeing the effects.

I'm not exactly sure that we should change the entire industrial production society of the planet for the sake of the 11,500 residents of Tuvalu. 

I'm sorry, but if I have to make a choice between our current society and the continuence of Tuvalu, Tuvalu loses.

You've just described the biggest source of world problems. People just don't care. 

Other sources of problems are people caring so much they accept anything the media or some guy in a labcoat tells them.

Just remember to take things with a grain of salt.

It's not just "some guy in a labcoat". The majority of scientists agree that climate change exists. Anyways, the only way things get done is when people care "too much".

Tell that to my Earth and Atmospheric Science professor. The media tends to overexaggerate things by a great deal(the sky is falling!). I am merely warning you to take that into account. The truth is usually in between what either side says - global warming is happening, but it isn't as bad as these people are making it out to be. It must also be considered that the climate has changed naturally throughout time and even in human history it has changed(we had a warm period in the middle ages, for instance) - thusly we can't automatically chalk all this change up to human causes. I also have to tell you that back in the creautacious period the average temperature was about 10 degrees higher than it is now. The Earth is tougher than you give it credit for.

And people who care 'too much' also have a tendency to cause problems in their own way - good intentions can be an insidious path to ruin, you know.

[John Dibble]

Hey, If by not using my computer I could sing handedly stop global warming, I would, but it is beyond mine, or really anyone's control at this point.

We, the consumers, collectively do it.  If we didn't use the products whose manufacturing and use cause greenhouse gasses, it would no longer be profitable for the companies to produce them.

Yes, if it is a problem, you are part of the problem.  We, collectively, have made a choice, and one of the effects of that choice is that more greenhouse gasses have been produced.  You'll complain about it, but you are not willing to pay the price, changing your lifestyle, to do anything about it.

I would argue that there is nothing wrong about that choice, so long as you understand that this is the cost.

Again I say, it is not my fault personally. If there was anything I could do I would.

I say it is, if you are personally not willing to alter you lifestyle.  You say that the reason for this is corporations and governments, and yet you buy an use the products of these corporations and use the services of these governments.

When you say, "If there was anything I could do I would," you are being dishonest.

No I am not being dishonest. I am not Jesus, I cannot save the world.

But you can do your part and encourage others to do the same. Every little bit that one person contributes adds up with the little bits other people contribute.

[John Dibble]

Hey, If by not using my computer I could sing handedly stop global warming, I would, but it is beyond mine, or really anyone's control at this point.

We, the consumers, collectively do it.  If we didn't use the products whose manufacturing and use cause greenhouse gasses, it would no longer be profitable for the companies to produce them.

Yes, if it is a problem, you are part of the problem.  We, collectively, have made a choice, and one of the effects of that choice is that more greenhouse gasses have been produced.  You'll complain about it, but you are not willing to pay the price, changing your lifestyle, to do anything about it.

I would argue that there is nothing wrong about that choice, so long as you understand that this is the cost.

Again I say, it is not my fault personally. If there was anything I could do I would.

I say it is, if you are personally not willing to alter you lifestyle.  You say that the reason for this is corporations and governments, and yet you buy an use the products of these corporations and use the services of these governments.

When you say, "If there was anything I could do I would," you are being dishonest.

No I am not being dishonest. I am not Jesus, I cannot save the world.

But you can do your part and encourage others to do the same. Every little bit that one person contributes adds up with the little bits other people contribute.

That's what I am doing here, trying to tell you there is a problem. I am doing my part

But you not changing your lifestyle to do it. 

Indeed - you still have more you can do to contribute. If you expect us to do something real about it rather than just bitching about the problem then you should lead by example and change your own lifestyle first, then and only then can you fairly expect us to do the same.

[John Dibble]

Again, I say- changing my lifestyle is not going to change anything.

Bitching to us isn't going to change anything either, now is it?

[John Dibble]

Again, I say- changing my lifestyle is not going to change anything.

Bitching to us isn't going to change anything either, now is it?

I agree

So how then are you doing your part again?

[John Dibble]

Again, I say- changing my lifestyle is not going to change anything.

Bitching to us isn't going to change anything either, now is it?

I agree

So how then are you doing your part again?

You're missing my point. I have already said I am not Jesus. I'm not Buddha either. There,  you happy?

You said you were doing your part.

That's what I am doing here, trying to tell you there is a problem. I am doing my part

So, which is it - are you doing your part by bitching to us about the problem, which you admit does absolutely nothing to change anything, or are you not doing your part?

[John Dibble]

Again, I say- changing my lifestyle is not going to change anything.

Bitching to us isn't going to change anything either, now is it?

I agree

So how then are you doing your part again?

You're missing my point. I have already said I am not Jesus. I'm not Buddha either. There,  you happy?

You said you were doing your part.

That's what I am doing here, trying to tell you there is a problem. I am doing my part

So, which is it - are you doing your part by bitching to us about the problem, which you admit does absolutely nothing to change anything, or are you not doing your part?

Well, if I were doing "my part" that would be it. However, there is no point of "doing my part" because I am powerless.

Right, you have absolutely no choice in how much energy you consume every day, what kind of car you drive(if one at all), what household chemicals you use, ect. Those matters are something you have absolutely no power in.

[John Dibble]

Well, if I were doing "my part" that would be it. However, there is no point of "doing my part" because I am powerless.

Right, you have absolutely no choice in how much energy you consume every day, what kind of car you drive(if one at all), what household chemicals you use, ect. Those matters are something you have absolutely no power in.

What I have no power in is the climate.  So I any change I make will be insignifigant.

You have the power to make a small change. As I said, it adds up, but you have to live by example so that other people see that it is possible. If you can convince, say, 10 people to live a lifestyle that minimizes their use of greenhouse gases and can get them to spread that, then you've done something. One person doing it may be insignificant, but if you could get more and more people doing it the effect is much greater. However, you've already given up before you've even started, so as far as I'm concerned you have no business preaching to the rest of us about the problem when you aren't even willing to do the slightest bit. If you live by the mentality "I can't do anything about it" you've already lost.

[John Dibble]

Well, if I were doing "my part" that would be it. However, there is no point of "doing my part" because I am powerless.

Right, you have absolutely no choice in how much energy you consume every day, what kind of car you drive(if one at all), what household chemicals you use, ect. Those matters are something you have absolutely no power in.

What I have no power in is the climate.  So I any change I make will be insignifigant.

You have the power to make a small change. As I said, it adds up, but you have to live by example so that other people see that it is possible. If you can convince, say, 10 people to live a lifestyle that minimizes their use of greenhouse gases and can get them to spread that, then you've done something. One person doing it may be insignificant, but if you could get more and more people doing it the effect is much greater. However, you've already given up before you've even started, so as far as I'm concerned you have no business preaching to the rest of us about the problem when you aren't even willing to do the slightest bit. If you live by the mentality "I can't do anything about it" you've already lost.

Yes, we have already lost. Climate change is pretty much beyond anyone's control.

It's sad to see people quit. Oh well, as I said, stop preaching about it then, because if you aren't gonna try to do anything about it then there's no point.

[John Dibble]

Yes, we have already lost. Climate change is pretty much beyond anyone's control.

Was it ever under anyone's control?
Something you could do is get paranoid about saving energy (as an example: I always turn my computor screen off when I go to get a drink or whatever) and try to get other people to do the same.

Your computer screen doesn't use much energy at all. It probably takes more to turn it on than it does to leave it on to go to the fridge.

[John Dibble]

It's sad to see people quit. Oh well, as I said, stop preaching about it then, because if you aren't gonna try to do anything about it then there's no point.

Hey, I still have my freedom of speech Mr. Libertarian.

Nobody said you didn't, but it is generally the act of hypocrites to bitch about a problem to others and yet not do anything to try to fix the problem themselves, even if it's just a little something.

[John Dibble]

How dare you call me a hypocrite! All I said was that Global Warming is a serious issue that it too far for anyone to help. How is my inablility to help being hipocritical?

You were acting as if we should do something about it. Only after that did you say that there was nothing we could do. What do you expect?

[John Dibble]

I leave my computer on all the time. I hear its not good to turn the computer off and on continually on a daily basis.

Same here, I leave my laptop on all the time.  Aside from restarting to install software updates, I haven't turned off my computer in three weeks.

Me too. The reason for that is simple science. What happens to an object when you continually heat it up and then cool it down all the time?