prove that the jews were held as slaves by egyptians without using the bible!

[John Dibble]

Prove that blacks were held as slaves in the South without using available written accounts.

Stop trying to change the subject.

Hey, Supersoulty brings up a legitimate point. My history teacher a few years back said that you never know whether something really occured or not for sure unless you were there directly.

No, his point isn't legitimate and yours isn't either.

With some things you can never be absolutely certain, but you can be reasonably certain if there's enough evidence. When it comes to the history of slavery in the US we can be reasonably certain because we have that kind of evidence. Not only are there multiple written accounts, but those accounts are from independent sources and largely consistent with one another. There's also lots of physical evidence.

On the other hand there's the issue of whether or not the Hebrews were ever slaves to Egypt. The one source referenced is the Bible - it's account of that is one sided (written from the Hebrew perspective) and contains rather fantastical claim. If there's no other written accounts of physical evidence, it makes it so that you can't be reasonably certain that the event actually occurred. This is why it is legitimate to ask for evidence outside of the Biblical account.

[John Dibble]

First, Rocam is a troll who likely isn't agreeing with me at all, but rather trying to delude me point by sounding like an idiot.

I did not put any weight of his point onto yours. I did however address both.

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Yes, the written records are important. Nobody is denying that. The point being made for American slavery is that there are multiple independent accounts with a high degree of consistency. Those three factors - multiple, independent, and consistent - are very important in how much weight we give the written accounts.

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What written records do we have that are independent of the Bible do we have exactly? If we have them, you should be able to reference them.

Again, a singular account for such major events, which supposedly spanned centuries, is not sufficient for reasonable belief. If I were to write an account of an entirely fictional major event, bury it in a sealed box somewhere, and historians find it a thousand years later do you think they'd believe it just because it was written? No, of course they wouldn't. Confirmation beyond a singular text is necessary.

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That has no relevance to this discussion. It has zero bearing on the evidence.

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The Biblical account clearly states that they were not being allowed to leave. This implies coercion, in other words forced servitude. If that does not constitute slavery then what does?

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Again, not relevant to the actual evidence of whether or not it actually happened. Just because something is plausible doesn't mean it's true.

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Exaggerations in the Biblical account are an important consideration. If they are indeed exaggerations then that means the account is tainted. This is why it important to have multiple independent sources with a degree of consistency - it helps you weed out the falsehoods from the facts. This is no different than what historians try to do with other written histories.

[John Dibble]

The reason I am arguing specifics about the account is because, historically, it has been pretty well established that the Hebrews were in Egypt, for some reason, for a long time.  You do realize that right?

No, I don't, because aside from a singular account with rather fantastical claims I have not seen any evidence for it. If you would care to reference some of this evidence it would help your case immensely.

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This extrapolation should be based on evidence. Again, please reference it.

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Again, Hollywood's interpretation is not relevant. The Biblical account clearly indicates that they were in a second class position of service and that they weren't being allowed to leave - this is pretty much the definition slavery. That they might not have been used to build monuments is not relevant. The question is whether or not it is true.

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I'm not totally throwing out the Biblical account - I think many portions of the Bible are at least based on historical events, just with some stuff thrown in or exaggerated. What's being asking for is independent verification of the account that is consistent enough to make the facts in question credible. The Battle of Thermopylae has multiple accounts as well, and I'm pretty sure there are at least some Persian accounts as well as Greek, so while we can't be sure of the actual numbers we can be reasonably sure the battle occurred.

[John Dibble]

*Sigh*

I know, having to back up your claims with evidence is really annoying, isn't it?

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As has been mentioned, this seems to be a topic that's under debate. The word could have been used to describe a generic type of group rather than a singular ethnic group, though any such group might take on that name in the long run.

The disappearance from the accounts has other explanations as well. The term may have simply faded from use if it was a generic term for specific types of people, which is something that happens with language. Alternatively, the group may simply have been wiped out or just integrated completely into regular society.

Certainly it's a point of interest - not trying to discredit it, only pointing out the other options. I think we'd need to have more evidence to know conclusively, otherwise all we have is educated speculation at best. We may very well never know, given the difficulty in finding that kind of thing for things that happened so long ago.

[John Dibble]

From the wiki article on Habiru:

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