Banning Muslim headscarves

[Gustaf]

I'm not surprised that Opebo and his side-kick take the fascist, freedom-hating position here and want to impose their own moral standards on other people.

Anyway, this is rather obviously a bad idea. A case can be made for it in certain special instances (such as for police officers, or driver's licenses, etc) but in schools? I mean, lol. I debated this in front of 300 people (the so-called European Youth Parliament) this Wednesday. We turned the crowd from 63% against the ban to 75% against it. (granted that was concerning schools only).

But I am surprised at my fellow continental Europeans. Sure, there is a lot of xenophobia and fascism still in Europe and we're not very good at recognizing principles of issues, etc but still. Exclusively banning certain garments belonging to a given group? That's religious persecution unworthy of a free, democratic state.

[Gustaf]

No, it shouldn't be banned.

However, forcing somebody to wear one should be illegal.  If someone wants to wear a headscarf, it should be of their own accord.

But how would you know if a woman was being forced to wear it by her husband or father?

You probably wouldn't know.  But if it came to light that she was being forced against her will, then the husband should be fined.

Freedom of religion is an individual right, not a right to control others.  There isn't a non-intrusive way to ensure that it doesn't happen, but we can deter it.

How can we know anything? If you see a girl in a short skirt how do you know her boyfriend doesn't make her wear it? Or if she has a long skirt how do you know her dad isn't making her wear that? Those are prices we pay for a free society.

[Gustaf]

No, it shouldn't be banned.

However, forcing somebody to wear one should be illegal.  If someone wants to wear a headscarf, it should be of their own accord.

But how would you know if a woman was being forced to wear it by her husband or father?

You probably wouldn't know.  But if it came to light that she was being forced against her will, then the husband should be fined.

Freedom of religion is an individual right, not a right to control others.  There isn't a non-intrusive way to ensure that it doesn't happen, but we can deter it.

How can we know anything? If you see a girl in a short skirt how do you know her boyfriend doesn't make her wear it? Or if she has a long skirt how do you know her dad isn't making her wear that? Those are prices we pay for a free society.

Your argument is completely contradictory.  You claim that by allowing headscarves, it creates a more free society, and yet you would allow the suppression of a woman's religious freedom at the hand of her father or husband as a "price to pay" for a free society?

How about we empower the woman by ensuring, as best we can, that the choice to wear a headscarf is ultimately her choice and her choice alone?

How can a society be free if you can't even count on the government to protect your freedom or to back you up when you are threatened by people who claim authority over you under the guise of religious tradition?

Where did I say that I "would allow the suppression of a woman's religious freedom at the hand of her father or husband as a "price to pay" for a free society"?

However, I was pointing out, more in response to Sbane than to you, that we wouldn't be able to enforce this very effectively by legal means. People are commonly abused in families in various ways. This is hard for society to prevent. Thus, its existence is a price we pay for a free society. I mean this in a very general way. Think of all relationships where one partner abuses the other. Or parents who mistreat their kids or the other way around. This is unacceptable in one sense, of course, but it is hard to combat effectively without allowing far-reaching state intrusion in peoples' private lives.

[Gustaf]

I'm not surprised that Opebo and his side-kick take the fascist, freedom-hating position here and want to impose their own moral standards on other people.
...That's religious persecution unworthy of a free, democratic state.

No, it has nothing to do with religious or moral standards, just trying to protect one citizen (the female 'muslim') from victimization by another (the male 'muslim').  The religious nonsense is just some silly mumbo-jumbo the criminal uses to justify his beating of the owned woman/children/minority/etc.

I suppose that we try at all to protect one citizen from another is a kind of 'moral standard', but its a rather basic and generalized one. 

Oh, maybe you didn't quite understand the issue at hand.

This:



Does not equal this:



See, the first is a form of dress used by women in certain cultural traditions. The other is a form of physical abuse common all over the world.

[Gustaf]

I'm not surprised that Opebo and his side-kick take the fascist, freedom-hating position here and want to impose their own moral standards on other people.
...That's religious persecution unworthy of a free, democratic state.

No, it has nothing to do with religious or moral standards, just trying to protect one citizen (the female 'muslim') from victimization by another (the male 'muslim').  The religious nonsense is just some silly mumbo-jumbo the criminal uses to justify his beating of the owned woman/children/minority/etc.

I suppose that we try at all to protect one citizen from another is a kind of 'moral standard', but its a rather basic and generalized one. 

Oh, maybe you didn't quite understand the issue at hand.

This:



Does not equal this:



See, the first is a form of dress used by women in certain cultural traditions. The other is a form of physical abuse common all over the world.

Apparently you don't understand a) why the women wear the headscarf, and b) what would happen to them if they didn't wear it.

They wear it because if they didn't, they would be beaten and raped by their oppressors.

Ok, now prove that your assumption concerning about half a billion people all over the world based on your own prejudices is true and not just something you make up to comfort your own intolerance. Any studies?

Besides, I thought you were in favour of abusing women in 3rd world countries. After all, it is what you do isn't it?

[Gustaf]

They wear it because if they didn't, they would be beaten and raped by their oppressors.

I knew a one, and I guess she's not alone, who could have beaten you if you tried to prevent her from wearing her hijab.

Well sure.  Nearly everyone is a participant in their own oppression.

Besides, I thought you were in favour of abusing women in 3rd world countries. After all, it is what you do isn't it?

Perhaps, but rather ordinary sex acts pale by comparison as 'abuse' compared to religion.

I didn't know you thought that one can define others as oppressed because they have different preferences. I can't say I'm surprised to see you embrace this fascist definition of freedom (freedom from "wrong" desires) though.

And how is sexual violation "pale" in comparison to having to wear a head-scarf? Or do you still not get that it is a piece of clothing?