Evangelicals without Standards

[Gustaf]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

[Gustaf]

The idea that it makes sense for a Christian to ally with an utterly immoral evil person who consistently lies because he has promised to give you favours is pretty dumb.

I'll also note that people like Fuzzy Bear are inventing these excuses now because they have to. He was an enthusiastic Trump supporter until it became uncomfortable. Trumpists have always had excuses - they used to claim they were small government conservatives. They might claim they're conservative evangelicals who care about family values. But it's clear at this point that they don't genuinely believe in any of these things. They mostly hate blacks, women and foreigners and vary in the degree to which they can couch that sentiment in more acceptable language.

I've never claimed to be a small government conservative.  I've claimed that there was a large "big government" conservative contingent in the GOP that was unrepresented until Trump came along.

Then again, when it comes to me, you're not interested in facts.

That part wasn't directed at you but at Trumpists in general. You're all deplorable in different ways. But it's telling that you decided to misinterpret that rather than attempt to defend yourself.

You're a false Christian and I'd guess that it would be painful for you to confront that fact.

[Gustaf]

This is an ugly, ugly thread, and I'm not really interested too much in getting myself, except to point out that many posters here, myself included, take politics way too seriously.  Most Christians don't even care much about politics, and many don't vote at all.  Evangelicals come in all shades and stripes, and the majority of adult, voting-age Evangelicals won't be voting for Trump, even if he gets over 50% head-to-head among those who do plan to vote.  And salvation is contingent upon faith in Christ alone, not who one votes for in this election.  Non-Christians getting to define who is and isn't a Christian is pretty laughable, even if they are correct in pointing out Trump's moral turpitude. Both candidates are terrible as far as I'm concerned, and it hearkens back to what John Calvin said about government:  When God wants to judge a nation, he gives them wicked leaders.  That rings true now more than ever.

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved. We aren't exclusionists.

Yes, Catholics can be saved despite a partially errant salvation doctrine and rejection of monergism.  

God established the local church for believers to worship in .  His will is best glorified in a Reformed church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or non-denominational.  

Not sure who you're referring to there, but I'm a Christian and consider myself to be more so than someone like Fuzzy Bear who exploits women's suffering to advance a political agenda. Anyone who stands for bragging about sexual assault, inciting racial war and religious persecution isn't getting the support of true Christians.

[Gustaf]

This is an ugly, ugly thread, and I'm not really interested too much in getting myself, except to point out that many posters here, myself included, take politics way too seriously.  Most Christians don't even care much about politics, and many don't vote at all.  Evangelicals come in all shades and stripes, and the majority of adult, voting-age Evangelicals won't be voting for Trump, even if he gets over 50% head-to-head among those who do plan to vote.  And salvation is contingent upon faith in Christ alone, not who one votes for in this election.  Non-Christians getting to define who is and isn't a Christian is pretty laughable, even if they are correct in pointing out Trump's moral turpitude. Both candidates are terrible as far as I'm concerned, and it hearkens back to what John Calvin said about government:  When God wants to judge a nation, he gives them wicked leaders.  That rings true now more than ever.

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved. We aren't exclusionists.

Yes, Catholics can be saved despite a partially errant salvation doctrine and rejection of monergism.  

God established the local church for believers to worship in .  His will is best glorified in a Reformed church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or non-denominational.  

Not sure who you're referring to there, but I'm a Christian and consider myself to be more so than someone like Fuzzy Bear who exploits women's suffering to advance a political agenda. Anyone who stands for bragging about sexual assault, inciting racial war and religious persecution isn't getting the support of true Christians.

This is a matter of how people weight issues.  Very few Evangelicals would support Trump because of those things you mentioned and most are supporting him because of the views his opponent has on abortion, gay marriage, and other issues.  I am not, but the fact is that abortion is extremely important among Evangelical voters, since most consider it tantamount to the murder of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a year.  You seem to imply that only your moral calculus is acceptable for a Christian to hold in determining how to vote this year - other weightings of the issues and considerations automatically discount someone form being a Christian, a notion which I reject.


But my main point is that the determinant of whether someone is a Christian is not whom they vote for, but rather whether or not they have true repentance and faith in Christ, which is demonstrated by fellowship in a Bible-believing church and continued sanctification and growing in knowledge of the Word.  It has nothing to do with how someone votes, as far as the Bible is concerned.  I just find it troubling that you make the determination of judging who is and isn't a "true Christian" based on voting without even acknowledging the fact that no one is righteous apart from God and that our salvation is not about the good works we do, but rather unmerited grace from God.  As such, I find the statement that "no true Christian is a Trump supporter" extremely presumptuous, especially if one does not give a definition of what a Christian is.   Perhaps voting for Trump is a sin (I would argue why someone votes for a person is far more important than for whom, but I digress), but that doesn't change the fact that God does not impute sin to a Christian's account, because it has already been imputed unto Jesus at the cross, so we don't have to bear the punishment we deserve.  "Blessed is the man whom God does not impute sin." 

I am perhaps a little bit sweeping here. But the evils of Trump run so counter to central tenets of Christianity that I'm deeply unconvinced that people who wear their faith on their sleeve and make their religious considerations central to their political beliefs could vote for that.

And I mean, let's get real. A Trump presidency won't end abortion. The man is pro-choice anyway or was until he started lying about being an evangelical. And even if he wasn't abortion wasn't ended by George W. Bush, it won't end now. Gay Marriage is already done and public opinion has already swung on that. The insane paranoid conspiracy theories about Clinton ending religious freedom is what I just said.

The evangelicals who claimed for years to care about family values have now sold out those values completely. I think that's disgraceful because it reveals a breathtaking hypocrisy in those people. I think it's especially revolting from someone like Fuzzy Bear who now suddenly pretends to care about female victims of sexual assault in order to cling on to his candidate. It's a sordid display, unworthy of someone who claims to be pious.

Note also that Fuzzy Bear has repeatedly stated that he doesn't normally vote Republican necessarily. He is fine voting for pro-abortion candidates it seems. He jumped on the Republican ship enthusiastically to back Trump, not reluctantly. Since what sets Trump apart from your typical Republican is racism and sexual assault I don't buy that a good Christian would have these types of preferences.

[Gustaf]

This is an ugly, ugly thread, and I'm not really interested too much in getting myself, except to point out that many posters here, myself included, take politics way too seriously.  Most Christians don't even care much about politics, and many don't vote at all.  Evangelicals come in all shades and stripes, and the majority of adult, voting-age Evangelicals won't be voting for Trump, even if he gets over 50% head-to-head among those who do plan to vote.  And salvation is contingent upon faith in Christ alone, not who one votes for in this election.  Non-Christians getting to define who is and isn't a Christian is pretty laughable, even if they are correct in pointing out Trump's moral turpitude. Both candidates are terrible as far as I'm concerned, and it hearkens back to what John Calvin said about government:  When God wants to judge a nation, he gives them wicked leaders.  That rings true now more than ever.

Yes RI. Because we know Catholicism is the only "one true church" in Christianity, and the rest of us are heretics.

While true, even heretics can be Christians and saved. We aren't exclusionists.

Yes, Catholics can be saved despite a partially errant salvation doctrine and rejection of monergism.  

God established the local church for believers to worship in .  His will is best glorified in a Reformed church, whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, or non-denominational.  

Not sure who you're referring to there, but I'm a Christian and consider myself to be more so than someone like Fuzzy Bear who exploits women's suffering to advance a political agenda. Anyone who stands for bragging about sexual assault, inciting racial war and religious persecution isn't getting the support of true Christians.

This is a matter of how people weight issues.  Very few Evangelicals would support Trump because of those things you mentioned and most are supporting him because of the views his opponent has on abortion, gay marriage, and other issues.  I am not, but the fact is that abortion is extremely important among Evangelical voters, since most consider it tantamount to the murder of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a year.  You seem to imply that only your moral calculus is acceptable for a Christian to hold in determining how to vote this year - other weightings of the issues and considerations automatically discount someone form being a Christian, a notion which I reject.


But my main point is that the determinant of whether someone is a Christian is not whom they vote for, but rather whether or not they have true repentance and faith in Christ, which is demonstrated by fellowship in a Bible-believing church and continued sanctification and growing in knowledge of the Word.  It has nothing to do with how someone votes, as far as the Bible is concerned.  I just find it troubling that you make the determination of judging who is and isn't a "true Christian" based on voting without even acknowledging the fact that no one is righteous apart from God and that our salvation is not about the good works we do, but rather unmerited grace from God.  As such, I find the statement that "no true Christian is a Trump supporter" extremely presumptuous, especially if one does not give a definition of what a Christian is.   Perhaps voting for Trump is a sin (I would argue why someone votes for a person is far more important than for whom, but I digress), but that doesn't change the fact that God does not impute sin to a Christian's account, because it has already been imputed unto Jesus at the cross, so we don't have to bear the punishment we deserve.  "Blessed is the man whom God does not impute sin."  

I am perhaps a little bit sweeping here. But the evils of Trump run so counter to central tenets of Christianity that I'm deeply unconvinced that people who wear their faith on their sleeve and make their religious considerations central to their political beliefs could vote for that.

And I mean, let's get real. A Trump presidency won't end abortion. The man is pro-choice anyway or was until he started lying about being an evangelical. And even if he wasn't abortion wasn't ended by George W. Bush, it won't end now. Gay Marriage is already done and public opinion has already swung on that. The insane paranoid conspiracy theories about Clinton ending religious freedom is what I just said.

The evangelicals who claimed for years to care about family values have now sold out those values completely. I think that's disgraceful because it reveals a breathtaking hypocrisy in those people. I think it's especially revolting from someone like Fuzzy Bear who now suddenly pretends to care about female victims of sexual assault in order to cling on to his candidate. It's a sordid display, unworthy of someone who claims to be pious.

Note also that Fuzzy Bear has repeatedly stated that he doesn't normally vote Republican necessarily. He is fine voting for pro-abortion candidates it seems. He jumped on the Republican ship enthusiastically to back Trump, not reluctantly. Since what sets Trump apart from your typical Republican is racism and sexual assault I don't buy that a good Christian would have these types of preferences.

I agree with you about gay marriage and abortion most likely being here to stay, but my point remains insofar as people want to vote against those politicians who explicitly promote such policies, even if the alternative is less-than-savory.

The central tenet of Christianity is that we deserve to go to hell but that we can escape damnation by repentance and faith in Christ, trusting in his finished work on the cross to separate us from the sins we rightly deserve to be punished for.  If one looks at the Old Testament, God can certainly seem authoritarian or xenophobic at times by the standards of many people here, and from a Christian POV the Old Testament is inspired by God (obviously Christians are divided on inerrancy/infallibility, but still).  The Christian doctrine of government is different than how a Christian should live personally.  "Turning the other cheek" makes no sense for a government to follow, as it would result in national decimation.  Rather, what I see as a command for government is to be "agents of wrath against the wrongdoer" according to Romans 13:4.  Christians can support a wide degree of government styles based on scripture, which is why many were Loyalists during the American Revolution, believing that the British were God's ordained authority on this Earth.  Plenty of Christians supported both sides during the Civil War, even though the Northern side was unquestionably on the right side morally. Surely you don't consider Trump as bad as Jefferson Davis, even if you hate him with every fiber of your being?  

Ultimately, God places all  leaders in authority by his will (Romans 13:1).  There is not a single leader who was not put in place by his omnipotent hand.  God's the one in control, not you or me. I'm not interested in defending individual Evangelical leaders in the "religious right" or whatever, but I strongly dislike the idea that salvation or one's true status as a Christian is determined by anything other than what the Bible has as tests for a true believer (fruits of repentance), which are found in the book of 1 John.  Anything else is adding to what scripture says.   What unites all Christians is faith in Christ and in his death, burial, and resurrection - politics there will be disagreements, as there always has been and always will be, until the return of Christ.

I can understand that in a time of ingrained racism some people did not know better than to vote for someone like Jefferson Davis. Trump I feel has less of an excuse. He's someone who deliberately chooses not to educate himself, who could do good with his money but decides to be evil. The same goes for his voters. If you refuse to acknowledge that being racist is wrong today I think less of you personally than I would for someone being racist back when it was more mainstream.

I'm not talking about normal political disagreement. When someone claims their political choices are guided by their faith but then choose to support someone who makes a mockery of that faith with his evil ways I won't believe they are sincere. I had strong disagreements with people Bush and Romney but I totally understood why many Christians supported them.