Obama to cripple space program

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

To date, except for experiments using human guinea pigs, there has been no space research done by the manned space program that could not have been conducted far more cheaply by the unmanned space program.  (That wouldn't necessarily be the case if we were willing to accept the same level of failure in manned space launches as we do in unmanned space launches, but I don't see that ever being the case.)

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Amazing how the tide has turned. The Left is going anti-science, the right is pro.

The manned space program these days has nothing to do with science and everything to do with pork.  Any science that it does accomplish is incidental and could be done more cheaply by an unmanned space shot.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If Russia, India, and China want to spend money on cosmonauts, vyomanauts, and taikonauts for a feel good spectacle, that's their business.  But if we're going to spend money on astronauts I want it to be for something more than to be a jobs program or a circus, Jmf.

If we do decide that we want to continue sending astronauts and cargo up to the ISS boondoggle, studies have already been done that indicate that the Delta IV is up to the task.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

And so we'll be left with no plans except to rely on the Russians, who will undoubtedly start to squeeze us.  

all too predictive:

"We have an agreement until 2012 that Russia will be responsible for this," says Anatoly Perminov, head of the Russian space agency, about ferrying astronauts from other countries into low-Earth orbit. "But after that? Excuse me, but the prices should be absolutely different then!"

At which point we'll either:
a) decide not to waste any more money on the ISS,
b) decide that despite the price increase the cost of paying the Russians is still cheaper than maintaining manned spaceflight capabilities for a couple of launches per year, or
c) go with a manned Delta IV or the proposed Jupiter program, both of which would largely make use of existing designs (and in the case of the manned Delta IV make use of a rocket system that will still be in use and production no matter what happens with Ares), or
d) go with any of several proposals to use human-rated versions of the cargo craft intended to supply the ISS, such as the Dragon, since SpaceX has already done some of the design work needed to make a crew-carrying version of the Dragon.

For the moment, if do decide we need a non-Russian crew capsule, I'd prefer a Delta IV or Ariane 5 based option since both rocket-systems appear to have weeded out their technical glitches with unmanned launches.  Jupiter, Taurus II (the rocket Cygnus will use), and Falcon 9 (the rocket Dragon will use) haven't had any actual flights yet, manned or unmanned.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

First off, the Ares I itself has not been flight tested, nor is it only a solid rocket booster.  All that has been launched to date is a single Ares I-X consisting of a four segment solid rocket first stage with a inert fifth segment and a mock-up of the second stage and payload to give the test vehicle similar weight and aerodynamic characteristics to an actual Ares I.  The second stage of the Ares I is a liquid-fueled rocket with a new engine, the J-2X, which is based on, but has major differences from the J-2 engine used in the Saturn program.

The Orion spacecraft is supposed to use the venerable AJ-10 design first used in 1950's and still in use in the second stage of the Delta II.

Delta IV's 1st stage engine, the RS-68 will need changes to become man-rated, but some of those were slated anyway for its use as the RS-68B in the Ares V.

Delta IV's 2nd stage engine, the RL-10 (no relation to the AJ-10) was slated to be used on the Altair (Constellation's lunar lander).

In short, the Delta IV option does provide a human-spaceflight capability to reach the ISS and would allow for development of some of the components intended for Constellation.  It probably is not the best option if we intend to return to Luna by 2020 and reach Mars by 2030, but even as Bush announced the program I doubted it would survive his presidency. as it is too expensive a circus.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I personally think that the problem here that allows this to happen is that people don't understand what space brings them. Our space program has pushed technology far more than people think about- look at GPS, computers, cell phones, even cable/satellite television. Space, more than anything else, pushes us forward in technology, learning, hell even pride in what the best and brightest in America can achieve.

And what do GPS, computers, cell phones, or even cable/satellite television have to do with the manned space program? 

(Yes, I am aware that the Apollo Guidance Computer was the first all integrated-circuit computer, but the slightly earlier D-37C that used a mixture of IC's and discrete logic  which was the guidance computer for the Minuteman II was the computer responsible for jump-starting the IC industry as far more IC's were used to build D-37C's simply because far more Minutemen II missiles were built than Apollos.)

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The point is that the space program has resulted in technology that has improved society greatly.  The Federal Government has improved the market greatly and has invented things that would never have been invented without the space program, because the market would never have allowed it.  Investors want to make a profit right away.  The don't want to pay scientists to invent a bunch of different things that they wouldn't even know to apply practically and sell in the marketplace.

Give some specifics instead of handwaving.  I already pointed out why Apollo's supposed contribution to the development of the integrated circuit is way overblown as the Minuteman II missile did far more to stimulate IC development than Apollo ever did (or could have unless we'd gotten up into the triple digits in Apollo launches).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Okay how about firefighter suits that are made from the same material as some space equipment, smoke detectors, joystick controllers, thermal wear, many cordless devices, medical digital imaging devices, ultra sound devices, advance alarm systems, many different robotic tools, advanced brakes, and engines.  Are you really trying to say that NASA has invented nothing in the last 40 years?  It’s going to be an uphill battle for you.

I'm not saying that NASA hasn't been a testbed for applied technology.  What I reject is the overblown claims that only a manned space program could have initially developed or made use of the technologies they applied.

I'm not going to bother debunking all your hot air, but I will do so for a couple of your more hyperbolic claims that are totally false .

The two-axis electrical joystick wasn't developed by NASA at all.  It was first used to guide the Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb in World War II, and by the 1960s were in widespread use for controlling RC aircraft.

As for medical imaging, the digital imaging techniques that NASA developed were for images sent back by unmanned probes, not the manned space program, so once again you've missed the mark, even of you make the unwarranted assumption that only NASA could have done the initial development.

As for the smoke detector, once again, it's another technology not developed by NASA at all.  They were first developed in the 1930s and became commercially available for home installation around 1965.  NASA's sole connection to the device is that they asked Honeywell to make one with variable sensitivity for Skylab since they weren't certain how much space radiation would get inside Skylab and affect the ionization that is part of how the smoke detector functions. Honeywell then used the NASA connection to market it for the already existing home market.  That's true for a number of so-called NASA technologies.  Being able to say that your product was used by NASA had quite the commercial benefit as Tang showed.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Obama is just crippling it now so that after he leaves office he can be the first black man to leave the atmosphere (voluntarily, of course).

He could be the first Kenyan in space, but not the first black.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I personally think that the problem here that allows this to happen is that people don't understand what space brings them. Our space program has pushed technology far more than people think about- look at GPS, computers, cell phones, even cable/satellite television. Space, more than anything else, pushes us forward in technology, learning, hell even pride in what the best and brightest in America can achieve.

And what do GPS, computers, cell phones, or even cable/satellite television have to do with the manned space program? 

(Yes, I am aware that the Apollo Guidance Computer was the first all integrated-circuit computer, but the slightly earlier D-37C that used a mixture of IC's and discrete logic  which was the guidance computer for the Minuteman II was the computer responsible for jump-starting the IC industry as far more IC's were used to build D-37C's simply because far more Minutemen II missiles were built than Apollos.)

Manned space flight puts a face on things. If we just sent probes up, the program would have been canceled a long time ago, simply because it wouldn't excite ordinary people.

A lack of manned space flight wouldn't have affected the ICBM program that the Minutemen II were built as a part of.  I will concede that it might have affected the unmanned interplanetary probes and the orbital astronomical observatories, but as spectacular as the images sent back have been, so far they haven't had practical use.  The military benefits of GPS, communication satellites and earth sensing satellites would have ensured that they would have been pursued even with no astronauts.