Sarkozy = Idiot

[Keystone Phil]

He wants to officially ban burqas now.

I don't like burqas either, Nick, but enough with this nonsense of burqas will "not be welcome" in your country because you're "Pro woman."

[Keystone Phil]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this.

Yeah, a real big FF. 

What about the women who actually want to wear a burqa?

[Keystone Phil]

Sarkozy is a freedom fighter for this.

Yeah, a real big FF. 

What about the women who actually want to wear a burqa?

Shouldn't be allowed into Europe.

Yeah, there's a healthy dose of freedom for you.

[Keystone Phil]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

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What the hell does that have to do with anything?

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

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Great reasoning.

 

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And that doesn't suddenly make this right.

[Keystone Phil]

Neoconservatives have always loved freedom

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What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That was directed at phknrocket. You know...the kind of guy that goes on and on about freedom in the West and then tries to limit personal freedom with stuff like this.

Oh, ok. I was going to say, "Why the hell is that directed at me?" 

[Keystone Phil]

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

The "safe side" just happens to be your personal opinion and that's not fair to any Muslim woman.

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But I'm not talking about foreign governments; I'm talking about the Muslims in France rightfully complaining.

 

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What?

So now we have to outlaw anything that adds to "hostility with the majority?" This cannot be serious.

I find this absolutely mind boggling that you, of all people, are now going to talk about "the public good" (which really isn't affected by burqa wearing) vs. minority interests. You are literally defending xenophobia in the law.

Imagine if I complained about a minority group "imposing their way of life" on people in my country! Imagine if I just complained about it and now compare it to someone like yourself who wants to outlaw their customs.

[Keystone Phil]

Are you denying the fact that many women are forced to wear burqas, sometimes even non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim areas?

I'm not denying that but I don't think they should be outlawed when a good amount of Muslims want to wear them.

If a non-Muslim in France is being forced to wear one, they can request legal action.

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I totally agree. That's not the debate here.

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So now anything you deem "anti-social" has to be outlawed? Uh...

I have another idea: let's ban "housewives."

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Wearing a burqa is strongly dominating? Wearing a burqa in a Western country "crosses that line" only because you say so.

Next time, don't complain when xenophobic nationalists from Western Europe want to write laws that keep out a bunch of poor, uneducated, dirty Eastern Europeans from entering their country. They're just prevent "strong influence" on their dominant culture, after all. 

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That's because I never knew about it. That's disgusting. I don't know why some people insist on throwing these types of situations in my face. You can call me a lot of things but I'm not a hypocrite. Do you really expect me to say that it's ok that Italy does this? I just never knew it happened.

[Keystone Phil]

What do housewives have to do with this?

Let's ban subservience, right?

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So they're not allowed to practice what they believe because of this alleged superiority? We have to straighten them out, right?

[Keystone Phil]

Being a housewive is being subservant? Didn't know you were a feminist, Phil.

I'm not. I'm just using the same rhetoric that you're using.

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Who the hell is ordering around the majority? They're ordering around the majority by wanting to wear a burqa?

[Keystone Phil]

It's absurd to compare this. Being a housewife doesn't hide you from the surrounding world.

Whatever, dude.

[quote
This is just part of the problem, which includes the insistence that employers should accommodate them in all possible ways, that they must not be "insulted" - this is taken to an absurd level, for example there have been calls to stop commemoration of the Holocaust as it supposedly denigrates Palestinians. The wearing of burqas (at least for security reasons) is incompatible with European norms, so permitting Muslims to wear them is already imposing their way on life on the majority.
This is a good example of what I'm talking about:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=18940_Austrian_Muslims_Demand_All_Teachers_Wear_Hajib&only
[/quote]

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And this has nothing to do with burqas. This is a horrific slippery slope argument.

[Keystone Phil]

they'll soon start to demand changes in the life of the majority. I think it's quite logical. Would those extremists have made those demands if it was clear that Muslims couldn't do whatever they wanted (if for example, headscarves were banned in school, as they were in Turkey until not long ago).

No, it's not logical; it's a ridiculous slippery slope.

France is a secular state and must remain so.

Secular in private life or government?

Government. But we must fight Muslim fundamentalism and oppression.

This is banning the burqas, not the headscarf only. I've little problems with headscarves, but a full black burqa has no place in France. France isn't Riyadh, for god's sake.

Wow. Just...wow.

Again, ignoring the will of women that actually want to wear it because France "isn't Riyadh."

This is the same genius that rails against xenophobic, nationalist fascists, right?  Where do we draw the line? Does Sarkozy now want to regulate what happens in mosques as well? Is he going to force mosques to allow women and men to pray together? I mean, why shouldn't he? This "isn't Riyadh," right?

Good for Sarkozy.

BTW I'm sure some Muslim women have consented to genital mutilation as well, yet it's still illegal in every civilized country.

We can make distinctions, BRTD. Burqas are not on the same level and genital mutilation is far more likely to be something forced on a woman.

I, personally, do not like burqas but there is some tradition behind it and I am in no place to tell women that want to wear them that they shouldn't because the U.S. "isn't Riyadh."

[Keystone Phil]

By the way, how is banning a religious custom a sign of a secular government? This doesn't affect the government at all; it targets personal life.

Has France banned habits for nuns?

[Keystone Phil]

Yes, they chose, but why ? Just becaus their mind are deadened by a fundamentalist rhetoric that said them from the childhood that they were inferior being, that they must serve their husbands and hide their body. "tradition" is a synonym of "oppression".

So now let's just ban the religion.  

Hey, imagine this - some people believe and like the traditions. They can do that.

By the way, you have warped what Islam really means just to excuse your dislike for it and give you reasons to surpress it legally. I've had a Muslim classmate describe to the class the tradition of the burqa/headscarve. Now I understand that there are people that actually want them worn to keep women as second class citizens but plenty of women really do follow the tradition and like it and for you to tell them they can't is disgusting and patronizing.

As for "tradition" being a synonym for "oppression," well, this isn't even worth my time anymore.

The quetion is not whether you like it or not. Some users are beginning to say "Women chose to wear burqa". Yes, they chose, but why ? Just becaus their mind are deadened by a fundamentalist rhetoric that said them from the childhood that they were inferior being, that they must serve their husbands and hide their body. "tradition" is a synonym of "oppression".

Why should the state judge why somebody wants to wear certain clothing?

Can't you just as easily say Catholics shouldn't wear crosses around their necks because "their minds are deadeneds by rhetoric"?

Bingo

they'll soon start to demand changes in the life of the majority. I think it's quite logical. Would those extremists have made those demands if it was clear that Muslims couldn't do whatever they wanted (if for example, headscarves were banned in school, as they were in Turkey until not long ago).

No, it's not logical; it's a ridiculous slippery slope.

If society capitulates (as many Muslims see it) on Islamic clothing, then some Muslims (mainly extremist, but still) see it permissible to pressure society to accommodate other demands, and if these are accommodated, to press yet other demands. Remember, most of these Muslims come from countries where minorities have little rights and many think that because the host countries give them many rights, they are somehow in control. And after all, they have religious justification for this.

And when Muslims wish to carry out Sharia Law and stuff like that, we can (and do) speak out against it. In the meantime, stop using the slippery slope argument for burqas. It's like me saying, "Well, we have to seal the borders because if we let too many Mexicans in, they'll force Spanish to become our official language."

[Keystone Phil]

I don't think those who have surrendered on so many issues regarding Muslims, would have much authority if they suddenly turned around out and opposed Sharia law and the like. After all, the same arguments can be used in this case, as in earlier cases: "It's just part of their religion and tradition!", "As hosts we must make immigrants feel welcome!" and so on.
And while all this is going on, all the negative drawbacks of burqas also go on: the isolation and alienation of Muslims, the security risks,  the forced wearing of burqas under pressure of their relatives, wider community and recently, Islamist groups.
I see that you believe strongly in the high minded position of absolute freedom, but absolute freedom is useless and even dangerous against those who have no respects for freedom and only wish to destory it.

It's not "absolute freedom" to allow women to wear something many actually want to wear. I know it's hard for you to understand that. It's sometimes hard for me to understand it, too, since I think many male Muslims do want it kept as a sign of inferiority but there is a tradition behind it that isn't "anti woman."

Whatever the case, it's not your business. Muslims aren't forcing anything on us with headscarves/burqas. When they start forcing it on us, you'll see me stand up and blast them just as much as I'm blasting Sarkozy.

And allowing Muslims to carry out their own traditions when Muslim women want it as well is not just like changing parts of my society to satisfy immigrants. Making Spanish an official language of the U.S., for example, is nothing like allowing Muslims to take part in their own traditions.

[Keystone Phil]

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

Were they women who actually want to wear a burqa?

[Keystone Phil]

No. One of them considers it both degrading and unislamic.

Ok, good for them but I'm a little more concerned with the women that want to wear them and I don't like the government telling them they can't wear it.

[Keystone Phil]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

Also, I'd like this answered as well: what are we to do with the mosques? What's stopping the government from going in there and forcing Muslim men and women to pray in the same area?

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I don't want a "restriction of their use." The guy came out and said they would not be welcome in "his France" or some nonsense like that.

[Keystone Phil]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

We ask them why. Why do they wish to wear a regional dress (the Afghan Burqua) that goes OTT on what 'modest' dress is supposed to be in Islam and why they feel they have to wear it. Which is exactly what the commission intends to do with the help of the Muslim community the majority of whom also want to see an end to a dress that is not just alien to France, but alien to the French Arab/African Muslim community too.

Why do they have to answer to a commission about what the hell they want to wear?

You know, preaching about "alien fashion" by an American to, say, a European in traditional folk dress (which tends to be very conservative) would be deemed very offensive and forcing them to wear American clothing would be fascist.

I just don't like the government requiring citizens to explain why they want to wear something that has no affect on the society whatsoever.

[Keystone Phil]

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?

I don't think there's anything dangerous about a burqa aside from possibly concealing weapons. Your examples are just paranoia about Muslims forcing their traditions on others.

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What can we do? Believe me, I'd love to act on that. I don't want anyone forced to wear something they don't want to wear. I just don't think banning them all is the right idea.

[Keystone Phil]

So it appears that you oppose integration of Muslims, as almost nothing says "Fuсk integration!" more than completely concealing women under a moveable tent.
And it's not paranoia. Did you actually read that article about the Austrian school?

I don't oppose integrating people by taking away clothing that they choose to wear.

It's paranoia when you say that keeping burqas will lead to a push to Sharia Law. If anything, Sarkozy's move will only make them desire it even more!

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I don't think a "frank discussion" is needed to justify their role. They don't need to answer to the government for what they want to wear.

But he doesn't just want a "frank discussion." He said they are not welcome in France so spare me the nonsense.

I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

Well, it's probably not seen as "fascists" in France since the fascists are probably enjoying seeing the Muslims lose something they want.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

How do I know what? That women want to wear it or that you don't want them to wear it?

I know that there actually are women that want to wear it from numerous documentaries and from one on one conversations with Muslim individuals.

[Keystone Phil]

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I don't think a "frank discussion" is needed to justify their role. They don't need to answer to the government for what they want to wear.

But he doesn't just want a "frank discussion." He said they are not welcome in France so spare me the nonsense.

This is his opinion, but he hasn't said that he wants them banned. As a significant proportion of the population does question their role, perhaps a frank discussion would be a good idea? Better than banning them outright, which many European countries have done?

I'll take conversing over a flat out ban but I think choosing between the two is ridiculous. I don't think Muslim women should have to explain to the government why they want to wear something and then hope it's convincing enough for some politicians.

By the way, how can you say that a remark by a President like "they [burqas] will not be welcome in my France" is just an opinion?

[Keystone Phil]

I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

How do I know what? That women want to wear it or that you don't want them to wear it?

I know that there actually are women that want to wear it from numerous documentaries and from one on one conversations with Muslim individuals.

The former. If we're going to use personal experiences as evidence, then I and others could obviously dig up a whole load of personal evidence to counter that, but that's quite flawed, as I think you'd agree.

But I'm not saying that my evidence is true for a majority and that yours isn't. I'm just concerned about the women that still want to wear them, regardless of what percentage of the Muslim population that make up.

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Uh, what?

Dude, I clearly stated throughout this thread that there are negative consequences and that I'm personally not a fan. I also stated that I do care about those forced into wearing them. I just think your "solution" is absolutely, ridiculously unfair to the women that want to wear them but you are being blind to that.

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But it's more than just an opinion to say that they're "not welcome" in his country. That sounds like a threat to me.

[Keystone Phil]

I suppose that you also support those people who want to walk naked outside to do so. This fits your logic perfectly.

No, that's not my logic. I'm not saying, "You can wear anything you want!"

You're telling me the burqa should be banned because it always hurts women and they're forced into it. I disagree. I'm saying Muslim women should be allowed to wear what they want and not have the government tell them how they ought to feel about what they're wearing. It the idea that the government is "doing it for their own good" that bothers me so, again, it's not the same logic.

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Right and that's more than just a personal opinion. How the hell can you tell me saying something is not welcome is not a threat of some kind? What sense does it makes to say something like, "These burqas will remain legal but they're not welcome." Conflicting message, anyone?

[Keystone Phil]

I keep opposing burqa for problems of identification

And that's fine. I understand that and I agree with you but when we don't need to identify someone, it's not an issue.

 

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The reasoning isn't the same. The reason so many oppose burqas is because it is "oppressive" to women. People are arguing that they're opposing them because they're looking out for the "own good" of Muslim women. Except...many Muslim women want to wear burqas! I don't oppose public nudity for the "own good" of nudists; I oppose it because of decency standards in public. People like Sarkozy and others that want a ban and say burqas are unwelcome will say that their position is about decency, too, but I disagree. It's about them not understanding a tradition and personally not liking what they think the burqa always stands for. As I said earlier, I believe that there are plenty of Muslims that want the burqa around to keep women in a second class status. That's the major reason why I generally dislike the burqa. However, I'm able to understand that there is more to it (as I've been told this by a Muslim female classmate) and that as long as a sizable amount of women want to keep wearing it, I'm in no position to tell them they shouldn't wear it.

I've already started why this comparison is rather poor, for the record.