14 States may target birthright citizenship

[Keystone Phil]

The hand wringing in this thread was too predictable.

I won't say that I agree with the motives of some pushing this. Someone mentioned that this could be just one crazy pushing this in a state legislature. Try to notice my winking here. Get it? That being said, it isn't racist to support this.

[Keystone Phil]

I haven't found any reasoning behind this yet, so race is really the only logical possibility.

...or they are tired of people taking advantage of the system.

I just wish these debates didn't become "You want to change the law because you hate brown people."

[Keystone Phil]

Damn those little kids using us.

Or their parents breaking the law.

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Yep, it's that black and white. I'm a racist.  

I'm sorry if you're that blind that you can't see the obvious problem here. There literally isn't a reason in the world why people breaking the law to come here and use services while jumping ahead of others that patiently wait their turn would be a problem?

[Keystone Phil]

No?  Bad idea?  Let's not forget that this entire country comes from immigrants.

Is this kid for real? You really are that oblivious? You're using the "nation of immigrants" argument? Thanks, Fezzy. I, of all people, am not aware that we are a nation of immigrants.  

This is about legal vs. illegal immigration.

[Keystone Phil]

Fezzy's family is rather well off. Big house in Central New Jersey. See what I'm getting at? Any wonder why he'd hold this position?

[Keystone Phil]

Fezzy's family is rather well off. Big house in Central New Jersey. See what I'm getting at? Any wonder why he'd hold this position?

Jesus Christ, what on Earth makes you so damn fixated with ME?  I'm not having this retarded conversation again.  Are you really that incapable of debating the ISSUE rather than the person?  I simply WILL NOT have a conversation about myself or you, ever, under any circumstances.

You wanted to label me a racist. You said there was no other reason for someone to oppose birthright citizenship. Now we'll see how you like others taking cheap shots.

The irony is that the people in this thread closest to their immigrant roots are supposed to take a lecture from Fezzy on immigrant appreciation. Got to love it.

[Keystone Phil]

Ignoring that and deriding me for pointing it out is easily the most intellectually dishonest thing I've heard on here in a long time.  

You want to talk to us about intellectual dishonesty? Wow. Please, post another picture of the Statue of Liberty and tell us how this is all about our hatred for the Hispanics, Fezzy. Please.

[Keystone Phil]

As has been noted, one can not sponsor parents for citizenship until age 21, and even then it has to be at least 10 years after someone has left the country if they ever lived here illegally. So the "anchor baby" nonsense is complete garbage with absolutely no basis in reality.

But that child is rewarded with citizenship because their parents broke the law while thousands of other children are waiting. Why are the latter so easily forgotten?

I would hate to send a child back to a place with fewer opportunities, freedoms, etc. This isn't an easily issue but, ultimately, I don't like people exploiting the system and screwing over the thousands of others that are waiting and playing by the rules.

[Keystone Phil]

Again, there's no reason anyone has to be forgotten and no one suggested other immigrants should be.  They shouldn't have to wait absurd amounts of time to be allowed here and there's no reason for them to have to.  And teaching them a petty lesson over a nonsensical law by screwing up their lives even more is spiteful and unnecessary, especially when we are in such a collectively privileged position.

Following the law might be petty to you. It isn't to many others. And every time someone breaks that "nonsensical" law, the others are screwed even worse.

You want to open the borders with basically no control? Fine. We'll see how long it takes until you take a position that's even more "extreme" than what others here have been calling for.

[Keystone Phil]

ONCE AGAIN, it's a stupid law that should be the one changed if we're going to go about doing that.  Those others wouldn't be screwed if they were let in after a reasonable immigration process, too.  I don't know where I said anything at all regarding open borders, but ok.

I see your capital letters, Fezzy, just as I saw your point earlier. It's a stupid law to you but it's the law. You have to deal with it. Immigrants have to deal with it. Saying this wouldn't be a problem if the law was just changed doesn't solve the problem. Since immigration law almost certainly won't be eased, you have to accept the fact that those who break this law are screwing over those that abide by the law.

[Keystone Phil]

Well it's not the children who broke the law but their parents. Children are punished for their parents' crimes now?

You see it as "punished" and I see it as them not automatically getting certain privileges. Again, this isn't easy but there are thousands of other children "punished" by the actions of those other children's parents. No word about them.

[Keystone Phil]

Well it's not the children who broke the law but their parents. Children are punished for their parents' crimes now?

You see it as "punished" and I see it as them not automatically getting certain privileges. Again, this isn't easy but there are thousands of other children "punished" by the actions of those other children's parents. No word about them.

So by denying them public education like many want to we're creating some giant uneducated underclass. Is that exactly what we want or what's beneficial?

If they aren't granted citizenship and public education then would we be seeing as many people entering illegal. You'll probably say, "Well, they'll just come here anyway" and that ought to serve as a serious wake up call for people to get on board with real border security.

It surely is about race, but it's also about elections. This is nothing more than an electoral security measure by Republicans scared that minorities will ruin their election chances and need an ace in the hole to neutralize votes, especially in Arizona. If these measures passed, they'd be challenging every Hispanic person that shows up at the polls and throw out tons of votes under the premise of the law.

That. If Hispanics were a heavily Republican group then you would see the likes of Tancredo, King and the Arizona guy marginalized inside the Republican party, not made into folk heroes.

So you're saying I don't like Hispanics?

I love it when you guys can't win an argument. It always goes back to racism or sexism or bigotry. There can never be an honest disagreement.

[Keystone Phil]

I find the racism directed from leftists related to China's and India's economic development abhorrent.

Stop it! It's ok when they do it.

[Keystone Phil]

It surely is about race, but it's also about elections. This is nothing more than an electoral security measure by Republicans scared that minorities will ruin their election chances and need an ace in the hole to neutralize votes, especially in Arizona. If these measures passed, they'd be challenging every Hispanic person that shows up at the polls and throw out tons of votes under the premise of the law.

That. If Hispanics were a heavily Republican group then you would see the likes of Tancredo, King and the Arizona guy marginalized inside the Republican party, not made into folk heroes.

So you're saying I don't like Hispanics?

I love it when you guys can't win an argument. It always goes back to racism or sexism or bigotry. There can never be an honest disagreement.

If by racist you mean unwilling to increase the ranks of a Dem-friendly constituency with a lot of new voters thus complicating Republican's electoral math, then yes you are.

You're truly pathetic. Nothing more than a two bit hack.

I'm unwilling to increase the ranks of a Dem friendly constituency when they enter this country illegally. It has nothing to do with electoral politics.

[Keystone Phil]

The real punishment would be to single out a group and deny them the rights granted to everyone in this country for centuries.

Enough with the constant victimization. The only people being singled out would be people that enter the country illegally. The real victims are the people you never talk about: the people that respect the law, wait their turn and are skipped over by fellow members of that "group."

And, yes, it is a reward to be granted citizenship when your parents aren't citizens.

[Keystone Phil]

You're truly pathetic. Nothing more than a two bit hack.

I'm unwilling to increase the ranks of a Dem friendly constituency when they enter this country illegally. It has nothing to do with electoral politics.

But if they voted Republican then you would be more lenient.

No, I wouldn't. Again, you resort to your same old disgusting rhetoric when you can't win an argument.

If this is all about advancing Republicans, why would I call for redistricting reforms that would cost my party seats in Pennsylvania? You don't like to debate issues, px. You resort to talking points and blatant mischaracterizations.

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Good for the Bush Administration and Rove. Last I checked, I wasn't Karl and didn't serve in that White House.

Do you support the dry foot policy with regards to Cuba? If so, why do you think they should receive different treatment from our government in comparison to illegal immigrants from say Venezuela?  

Political asylum is a different story and I wouldn't just grant it to Cubans.

Is that really your best attempt at showing my racial bias? Accepting only Cuban Hispanics?  

[Keystone Phil]

And, yes, it is a reward to be granted citizenship when your parents aren't citizens.

But the Founding Fathers put it in the Constitution!
How dare you question their wisdom!

Do you ever seriously engage people from the opposing side?

You lose an argument -> Sprinkle a little ridiculous rhetoric -> Change the subject -> Make more generalizations about me and my beliefs.

I'm beginning to think you just aren't a smart person. This is the best you can do and it's very sad.

[Keystone Phil]

The real punishment would be to single out a group and deny them the rights granted to everyone in this country for centuries.

Enough with the constant victimization. The only people being singled out would be people that enter the country illegally. The real victims are the people you never talk about: the people that respect the law, wait their turn and are skipped over by fellow members of that "group."

And, yes, it is a reward to be granted citizenship when your parents aren't citizens.

You see, when you tell me to stop playing the so-called victim card and then you play it yourself it weakens your argument. Just saying.

How am I doing that? I'm not crying about people being treated "unfairly" even though they take advantage of the system.


 

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It isn't punishing that person; it isn't a "right," in my eyes, if you are born here as a result of an illegal entry.

 

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Haha, uh, what school are you attending? "The most morally upright policy?" Ok, kid. Please stop editorializing.

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...

I know all of that. How is that supposed to convince me that your position is right? You don't get points for your position because you are connected to immigrants.

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They're taking advantage of services that would have sooner been available to them. How about jobs, too?

[Keystone Phil]

Why am I not serious? Constitution is holier than the Bible when it comes to condemning the "Big Government", according to the Republicans. They are even going to read it aloud at the House.

But when it comes to birthright citizenship...

Yes, when it comes to birthright citizenship, which the Founders didn't anticipate being so heinously abused...

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Uh, you called me racist earlier. You told me my views are what they are because they help the GOP. So, yes, we are talking about my views. Do you really forget what you said about two posts ago?

[Keystone Phil]

They're taking advantage of services that would have sooner been available to them. How about jobs, too?

The idea that a native-born worker has a prima facie right to a job by virtue of his birth is ludicrous on his face.

I didn't argue that though. I said an immigrant that is waiting to lawfully enter the country is losing that opportunity to someone that just entered illegally.

[Keystone Phil]

I never even said that you had racial bias, Phil. Lighten up. I'm just saying that why would you have a double standard with regards to Cuba because the process for becoming a legal permanent resident if you're Cuban is much different that if you were a refugee seeking asylum as a Venezuelan? There are double standards all over our immigration policy because we prioritize certain refugees from countries that we are at odds with namely: Iran, Vietnam, Cuba and Sudan while our country mostly ignores refugees from elsewhere.

...I'm pretty sure I argued that political asylum should be granted to the Venezuelan as well so, again, please don't lump me into a group that just wants the Cubans to have asylum for their votes.

I'm not sure if Phil has me blocked, so I'll simply expand on my point:

First of all, I don't block anyone. Secondly, I've really liked you since your return so I really wouldn't have any reason to block you. Thirdly, I responded to your post.  

[Keystone Phil]

So is the second amendment but try tell that to your fellows.

Oh, no! More of that gun hysteria from the hand wringing European. Do some more preaching about violence, px. By the way, is your country still burning down?

Again, px, you desperately shift gears. It's now so blatantly obvious that you're just not that intelligent and need to resort to this type of stuff to "make a point."

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So wait, am I partisan despite the example I cited above that you called "noble?" And, yes, apparently I am a racist. You said so yourself. You said it was racist for me to oppose birthright for Hispanics because they aren't Republican. If you're going to be an idiotic hack, at least keep your arguments straight.

[Keystone Phil]

I just don't understand why conservatives are unwilling to give any path of residency (eventually citizenship) out to illegal immigrants that would involve them paying a hefty fine, going through hoops and even giving up services for a year or two. Wouldn't this be punishment enough for them breaking our immigration laws?

Here's a path to citizenship: do exactly what many of their fellow countrymen are doing and wait. This only sounds "racist" to hand wringers because I'm not Hispanic but I'd say the same thing to my family when they were coming from Italy.

 

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Ah, don't enforce the law because other people won't like it. Good one.

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You still think I'm holding my position for electoral political reasons? Wow.

[Keystone Phil]

In 1991, Warren E. Burger, the conservative chief justice of the Supreme Court, was interviewed on the MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour about the meaning of the Second Amendment's "right to keep and bear arms." Burger answered that the Second Amendment "has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud—I repeat the word 'fraud'—on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime." In a speech in 1992, Burger declared that "the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to have firearms at all." In his view, the purpose of the Second Amendment was "to ensure that the 'state armies'—'the militia'—would be maintained for the defense of the state."

http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/76368/the-most-mysterious-right

Of course Warren Burger was a well-known, hand-wringing, liberal European.

You know, believe it or not, I've heard this argument before! Now should I bother to post all of the judges that have disagreed with him or will you choose to be reasonable and take my word for it?

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I was unfairly called a racist and an extreme partisan. I've disproved one and I don't think you actually believe me to be another. I was unfairly attacked.

I didn't say EMD was playing the victim card, for the record. However, countless others (yourself included) make people who break the law out to be the victims while ignoring the people they are skipping over. Just one more reason for you to wring your hands. You don't actually care; you just want to attack those big, mean Republicans!

[Keystone Phil]

px, you aren't helping.

That's because he doesn't argue anything. You can disagree with me but at least I argue something. Px just spews rhetoric, mischaracterizes, etc.