Gay marriage opponents' strategy uncertain in 2015

[TJ in Oregon]

Country Class,

Don't get your hopes up that the poll is an outlier. Gay marriage is coming whether we like it or not, whether this poll shows it or not, and whether the Supreme Court says so in June or not. While the details of some minor side-issues haven't quite been decided yet, this one's over; it's a 20 point basketball game with a minute left.

So the question becomes, what now? Where do we as social conservatives go from here? Other than abortion (abortion is the only social issue with stable views across all age groups for most surveys) we are going to lose these fights and continue losing them. I think we may be hitting the reality that changing our culture and its morals can’t start with politics. It may end up there, but it has to start with individual people. As Mother Theresa once said, “Be the change you wish to see in others”. Hold strong to your moral convictions through thick and thin and don’t give in to whatever concupiscence you experience in life. We may individually feel that God is dead to our world, but realize that God can’t be dead to the world as long as he lives in you. I’m not saying don’t vote, but if we really want to change our society’s ideas of right and wrong the place to do it is in our lives not at the ballot box. As far as I can tell, no country was ever converted by voting for the right candidate.

To do any of this requires us not to collapse into bitterness and despair but to engage the world and to do it with love. No one has ever been convinced by a despairing rant.  The gulag may indeed be coming, but nothing makes the gulag as horrifying as the fear of the gulag. Your cross may be heavier than most, but it is still yours to carry through the pain. As Christians, we look to imitate Christ, who carried his cross, painful as it was, without a grudge. Carrying a grudge, bitterness, and anger, can only make your cross heavier, not lighter. As painful as it might be, you still have something to offer this world, a purpose in this life. No matter what the law says, no one can take that away.

[TJ in Oregon]

Country Class,

Don't get your hopes up that the poll is an outlier. Gay marriage is coming whether we like it or not, whether this poll shows it or not, and whether the Supreme Court says so in June or not. While the details of some minor side-issues haven't quite been decided yet, this one's over; it's a 20 point basketball game with a minute left.

So the question becomes, what now? Where do we as social conservatives go from here? Other than abortion (abortion is the only social issue with stable views across all age groups for most surveys) we are going to lose these fights and continue losing them. I think we may be hitting the reality that changing our culture and its morals can’t start with politics. It may end up there, but it has to start with individual people. As Mother Theresa once said, “Be the change you wish to see in others”. Hold strong to your moral convictions through thick and thin and don’t give in to whatever concupiscence you experience in life. We may individually feel that God is dead to our world, but realize that God can’t be dead to the world as long as he lives in you. I’m not saying don’t vote, but if we really want to change our society’s ideas of right and wrong the place to do it is in our lives not at the ballot box. As far as I can tell, no country was ever converted by voting for the right candidate.

To do any of this requires us not to collapse into bitterness and despair but to engage the world and to do it with love. No one has ever been convinced by a despairing rant.  The gulag may indeed be coming, but nothing makes the gulag as horrifying as the fear of the gulag. Your cross may be heavier than most, but it is still yours to carry through the pain. As Christians, we look to imitate Christ, who carried his cross, painful as it was, without a grudge. Carrying a grudge, bitterness, and anger, can only make your cross heavier, not lighter. As painful as it might be, you still have something to offer this world, a purpose in this life. No matter what the law says, no one can take that away.

Did you just out yourself?

No..? Did you just learn to read?

[TJ in Oregon]

Country Class,

Don't get your hopes up that the poll is an outlier. Gay marriage is coming whether we like it or not, whether this poll shows it or not, and whether the Supreme Court says so in June or not. While the details of some minor side-issues haven't quite been decided yet, this one's over; it's a 20 point basketball game with a minute left.

So the question becomes, what now? Where do we as social conservatives go from here? Other than abortion (abortion is the only social issue with stable views across all age groups for most surveys) we are going to lose these fights and continue losing them. I think we may be hitting the reality that changing our culture and its morals can’t start with politics. It may end up there, but it has to start with individual people. As Mother Theresa once said, “Be the change you wish to see in others”. Hold strong to your moral convictions through thick and thin and don’t give in to whatever concupiscence you experience in life. We may individually feel that God is dead to our world, but realize that God can’t be dead to the world as long as he lives in you. I’m not saying don’t vote, but if we really want to change our society’s ideas of right and wrong the place to do it is in our lives not at the ballot box. As far as I can tell, no country was ever converted by voting for the right candidate.

To do any of this requires us not to collapse into bitterness and despair but to engage the world and to do it with love. No one has ever been convinced by a despairing rant.  The gulag may indeed be coming, but nothing makes the gulag as horrifying as the fear of the gulag. Your cross may be heavier than most, but it is still yours to carry through the pain. As Christians, we look to imitate Christ, who carried his cross, painful as it was, without a grudge. Carrying a grudge, bitterness, and anger, can only make your cross heavier, not lighter. As painful as it might be, you still have something to offer this world, a purpose in this life. No matter what the law says, no one can take that away.

Did you just out yourself?

No..? Did you just learn to read?

You used ‘we’ quite a lot and advised a (if we take him at his word) a self-loathing gay not to give into concupiscence. Then you said ‘to do this requires us..’ etc etc. The whole thing is peppered with ‘kinship’ and it came across you empathised with him on matters of sexual restraint. Given that your response to me wasn’t actually a response at all, but a dig at me apparently not being able to read doesn’t exactly allay matters.

The "we" is used in this context to designate a common belief system, which if we take CCSF at his word, is something that is to some extent shared. I don't think it's much of a dispute that CCSF's posts aren't exactly helping the cause (which in this case isn't so much gay marriage but rather Christianity in general). The poor guys is going on about gulags for heaven's sake; he clearly needs to be reminded not to worry so much about the law. We (Christians) aren't likely to be put in gulags any time soon. Sexual concupiscence isn't the only thing one can do badly with. I wasn't really thinking about that when I wrote this.

[TJ in Oregon]

Sorry TJ and CCSF, but you two are actually more like the Pharisees, who felt their religious law was being threatened and used Roman Law to persecute the reformers--Jesus and his disciples.

That problem with that interpretation is that Jesus is merely a reformer and that the Pharisees were merely trying follow the law. Neither is the case. The Pharisees were abusing law in a number of ways and Jesus was the completion of the Jewish law. He was not merely a political activist trying to change laws and his main reference to the government was to tell people to render unto Cesar what is Cesar's. The idea of Christians as political force wasn't really a thing in those days. Also the main point of my original post in this thread was that we should stop worrying about the laws.

[TJ in Oregon]

I don't mind your posts TJ, at all, on SSM, and appreciate them. But I am curious whether at this juncture, you have a secular, data based argument against SSM to which you honestly subscribe. Arguing theology qua theology when it comes to public policy is a dead end. It will persuade nobody but believers. But then you already knew that.

None that I imagine will convince you But to answer your question, there is data out there showing a variety of worse outcomes for children (getting arrested, drug use, etc.). Do I honestly subscribe to it? I think it's probably true but to be honest, I never really have much faith in the statistics of social science research. I know far too many grad students in those fields

Like I said before though, gay marriage is coming regardless at this point. There is little to be gained by using political capital to try and stop it. For example, I don't blame Governors Christie and Walker in the slightest for waving the white flag when their states' gay marriage bans were overturned (what more could they have done?). I still do oppose it on a personal level and will never politically endorse it (as though anyone cares about my political issue endorsements)(I am not a consequentialist), but that ship has sailed.

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The bigger issue now, both nationally and for me, is what we should do about all those florists and cake bakers. I would gladly sign off on some sort of compromise that enshrines government recognition of gay marriages and prohibits discrimination against gays and lesbians in housing, employment, and the usual service realms with religious exemptions for workers from partaking in events that go against their beliefs. I do not believe there is support on the other side of the aisle for such a compromise. Rather I get the impression, at least from the banter I've seen on the topic, that any religious exemption at all is a redline that cannot be permitted. Thus we get back to the gulag

I would point to Indiana as an example of what happens when you add religious exemptions. True, Indiana did not ban discrimination against gays in their original bill, but it was already legal in Indiana to discriminate against gays before the RFRA was passed and no one seemed to care then. It was only when religious freedom was involved did everyone blow a collective gasket. I would also like to add, since I'm not sure I've ever actually posted it on here, that I do not think it ought to be legal to discriminate against gays in employment, service, housing, etc. That is not a matter of political capital; I simply do not think it should be legal regardless of the popularity of the idea. Then what defines discrimination vs. religious freedom exemptions in my opinion? Discrimination is denying service based on who someone is rather than the content of the service they ask you to provide. It should be illegal for, say, to give a totally random example, a pizza parlor in South Bend, Indiana to refuse to let customers into the store because they're gay. It should be legal for said pizza parlor to refuse to cater a gay wedding reception. It should also be legal for them to refuse to cater a pot convention, or a political convention, or a Bar Mitzvah, or a First Communion party, or whatever they don't believe in catering.