Santorum blames gay marriage for bad economy

[TJ in Oregon]

Fun fact, the state that has had gay marriage the longest, Massachusetts, also has the lowest divorce rate per capita. No other state has gay couples that have been married 5 years in that state and want to divorce. And they're still the lowest.

Massachusetts has had the lowest divorce rate long before gay marriage was legalized.

I doubt you will find much difference if any in the divorce rate from legalizing gay marriage.

[TJ in Oregon]

I've never understood why repressing one's concupiscience is automatically viewed as a bad thing. Being able to resist the urge to act on a temptation of some sort is a crucial part of self-discipline. I guess it really comes down to tightly connected you view a concept of temporal hapiness to our purpose on this earth. I've also found in my rather brief life so far is that I am not always less happy while under a burden view as terrible (ie. we find a way to make ourselves just as happy doing without something we hold dear). I believe there's something more than this life and that shapes my worldview on these matters substantially. On a personal level I find the notion that self-discipline (ie. not always acting on a temptation) to be a backwards and twisted thought.

On a political level, it clearly gets more complicated that that. Government recognized marriage as a subsidy to encourage a certain behavior that society deems beneficial. If society deems gay marriage worthy of that subsidy then it should be recognized by that society. Notice how race is treated differently that gender in our history; the Equal Rights Amendment failed. If it had passed we very likely would have to required gay marriage on the grounds that forbiding it is gender discrimination.

As far as the "broken windows" theory regarding gay marriage, I think there is something there but it's more long-term than fluctuations in marriage and divorce rates over a five-year period in Massachusetts vs. the rest of the country. The real issue here that will change society is the underlying concept of sexuality and family life. I highly doubt many if any straight couples are going to suddenly decide to get a divorce just because gay marriage has been legalized. It's more of a "populations change but individuals do not" type of effect where those who grow up in an atmosphere where homosexuality is socially acceptable will be less likely to view the possibility of procreation as a requirement for sexual morality.

[TJ in Oregon]

TJ, if it is all about the money (and marriage is not all about government subsidy - ever hear about the "marriage penalty" in the tax code?),...

True, there are some logistical benefits of marriage, mainly that the government recognizes you as family. This is still essentially a subsidy since most people view having a legal marriage as on the net beneficial.

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That's becuase there are people who feel gay marriage is personally unacceptable but should be legally recognized, perhaps they see some value in a committed relationship regardless of sexuality or because they view "marriage" as something reserved for religious purposes and "civil union" as allowing benefits to be received. I don't see much difference between the two--no matter what you call them--but a lot of people do.

[TJ in Oregon]

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Well, I would argue that sex is essential to marriage. You can't have marriage without sex. Yes, you are right that it's possible to engage in eros without sex, but that's not really what marriage is about. Eros without sex is what you'll see in courtship, where the couple will deny themselves the fulfillment of eros in order to develop the other forms of it. Marriage at the end of it is the culmination of eros. 

This is really a crucial distinction. If sex isn't necessary, then that opens the door to quite a few other relationships.

This difference comes from the fact that Nathan is a Protestant and thus does not seem to believe that sex is required for a marriage ti be sacramental, as it is in the Catholic Church. This topic rarely comes up since as Ben says, marriage without sex isn't a very popular idea (of course then we get entangled into discussion of contraceptives--which is another topic for another thread).