SENATE BILL: Senate Resolution on the 2014 Crimean Crisis (Amendment Vote)

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I don't think it's appropriate to declare our "full support" for a government palling around with armed neo-Nazis, quite frankly.

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Assuming Atlasia had the same scandal the USA did (the one discussing which opposition leaders would be "appropriate" for a new government) our nose is hardly clean on this matter. I'm inclined to stay out of it.

I'm with my colleague on this one.

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Trade sanctions will only further push Russia into a hostile position. I do not support increasing hostilities for the sake of saving a neo-Nazi led/supported Ukrainian government.

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Russia is in no way worse than a government that is being led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis. You do not get worse than open and armed Nazism. Putin is an authoritarian strongman and nothing more. He's no ideologue. The same cannot be said for the new government of Ukraine. This is not our fight. I condemn Russia's aggressive actions in the same manner that I condemn the imperative of any nation to exact force upon another to get desired political change; if the Russians engage Ukraine with military force, I support all efforts by the Ukrainian people to resist Russian aggression. I do not support aiding either side with armaments, aid, or support in the form of trade sanctions.

Yes, I would oppose these aspects even in an alternate scenario, because they are committing the Republic of Atlasia to a course of action that involves us in the internal politics of not one, but two sovereign nations with which I would not like to create bad blood or hostilities. I do not find it appropriate for the Republic to take sides in a conflict that has absolutely nothing to do with the people of the Republic of Atlasia.

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Aye

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First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?

Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.

Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

[TNF]

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?

Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.

Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

What good does saying you "strongly condemn" something do if you aren't actually willing to get involved and do anything about it?

Because quite frankly we should not be involved nor should we "do anything about it" beyond condemn the action of Russia for what it is - a gross violation of international law. It would not be wise to risk armed confrontation with Russia for the sake of ensuring the survival of a fascist-aligned government in Ukraine.

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I object.

"Heavy sanctions" does not forego sanctions altogether, and it really should. Sanctions won't hurt Putin, they'll hurt the average Russian man and woman.

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Might we also allow for the free immigration of those in Ukraine who feel threatened by the new government there?

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Might we also allow for the free immigration of those in Ukraine who feel threatened by the new government there?

Loooooooool. Are you serious?

Yes, I for one would not want to be a Jew in Ukraine, where the incumbent government is on friendly terms with the neo-nazi Svoboda party.

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Offering this as an amendment. Surely it makes more sense just to fully open up immigration with the whole of Ukraine rather than just cherrypicking the Crimea region, no? It's not like INS officials are going to be doing intensive truth finding missions to make sure that people who claim they're from Crimea are actually from there, anyway.

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Nay

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What about my amendment?

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Proceed as is.

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I object. This would open up a free for all on immigration from Ukraine for reasons totally unrelated to the crisis.

That isn't necessarily so bad,
But I dislike the hatred for Ukraine's
Shiny new government by TNF.
I've seen no solid evidence of Russians
Discriminated at by those in power,
And this seems like a way to get a cheap
Shot in at democratic revolution.

Armed neo-nazis a democracy does not make

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Would those Ukrainians cause Atlasia any harm?

No but MUH BORDERS

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Aye

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[TNF]

AYE