SENATE BILL: Living Wage Act (Law'd)

[Napoleon]

an already high base?

We have a 43 cent gas tax. I'm just offering some perspective here.

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This is essentially the current minimum wage, as I don't think any regions have lowered it. The goal of this is to make sure they do not, because the economic impacts of doing so now would be devastating to the working poor. Because this is essentially the current wage, or in the case of the Northeast, lower than current wages, the net effect on businesses will be ZERO.

Wouldn't this actually lower the minimum wage set by the previous Living Wage Act?

No, I wouldn't do that dude.

Raising the 0% income tax bracket to, say, $25,000 or expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit might be a more achievable way of raising the standard of living for lower income Atlasians.

That said, I'll support whatever is politically feasible. I fought against the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act last fall, and I'd like to see it repealed. I just don't know whether we'll have the votes to do that, depending on where President Marokai stands on this issue today.

There's some trade offs in Atlasia compared to America. The cost of living is much higher, but social services are far superior. Most of these wage earners would not have to purchase healthcare for themselves, but basics like food and gas will be more costly. I think we should stop playing games with the tax system with tax credits and the like. I would rather someone earn more and pay tax than earn less and pay no tax. We're all in this together; the last thing our government should do is tell the people that only some of you will be contributing to what our government provides.

I know from experience that if the minimum wage is raised this drastically- small business owners will be forced to lay off employees... it is as simple as that. I understand and respect the intention but the immediate impact will be more people out of work

Senator- with all due respect, no one will be laid off because of this change. The current minimum wage in each region is already $12, this bill will only prevent that wage from lowering. And considering the cost of living here compared to what you may be used to in the US, $12 is not as much as it sounds. It's probably the equivalent of $8 or $9.

I absolutely support this, as evidenced by my cosponsorship. The fact is, whatever burden it may have on massive corporations (who are making more than ever and are afraid to budge even slightly) is outweighed by the fact that millions of Atlasians are working full weeks, often multiple jobs, and are still in poverty or at risk of falling into poverty. After the minimum wage cut, this is absolutely necessary to support the Atlasian proletariat.

Exactly. And there is no shame in needing assistance from the government in hard times, but no one wants to be dependent on the system. Atlasian workers should be able to support themselves with their own pay.

[Napoleon]

I also urge the Senators to keep in mind that the standard work week is 32 hours. So employees get less hours, and will need higher wages to be able to support a family.

My conservative colleagues may have some doubts about this proposal. I ask them to please consider the differences between Atlasia and the United States when we discuss this bill. As Governor, I proposed and passed a minimum wage increase because it was the right thing to do. The conservative members of the Assembly joined me in supporting that measure, and I don't think they regret it.

[Napoleon]

I'd rather make the work week longer.

And kill jobs?

[Napoleon]

Either option does that,

The minimum wage has not been lowered in any region, so the minimum wage no matter where someone lives is at least $12. Explain how this bill would kill jobs.

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How is that the case?

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32 hours is not half a job. I don't know anyone who works 64 hours a week.

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Some people aren't making a good enough living for the amount of work they do regardless of hours. They just happen to be paid hourly.

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Because I don't support the sort of anti-family wage slave policy that keeps parents working all week while their kids sit mostly unattended in day care centers. People can and do work more than 32 hours, and they get compensated fairly with over time pay. I'm concerned about those who are at risk of having their lifestyle subject to the whims of a regional government. The poor are not pawns to be used in a political power play at the benefit of the corporations.

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Atlasia hasn't been in a recession. The Atlasian economy has been steadily growing since President Polnut's second term and all throughout my presidency.

I'm firmly opposed to repealing any of the progress made during the Snowguy administration. I'm willing to discuss and examine any options that are offered in good faith that retain the spirit of our progressive society, but I don't think rolling back the clock will benefit workers, consumers, or employers at this point in time. A healthy middle and working class is necessary for the capitalist system we have to sustain itself.

[Napoleon]

provide a certain to degree of an ability for a differential in regions that also have different standards of living, for one, but also different economic conditions.

That ability is there, and is the reason why the Northeast has a minimum wage higher than this bill proposes.

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I would need to see more information about that before I find it credible.

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So you and Marokai have both proposed previously exactly what I'm proposing now. Interesting.

[Napoleon]

I think we should stop playing games with the tax system with tax credits and the like. I would rather someone earn more and pay tax than earn less and pay no tax. We're all in this together; the last thing our government should do is tell the people that only some of you will be contributing to what our government provides.

The income tax is far from the only federal tax that Atlasian citizens pay, so this argument (like the "skin in the game" line the RL Republicans love to trot out) doesn't make much sense. The people to whom we'd be extending relief from the income tax would still be paying our gas tax, payroll tax, etc.

I'm very aware of that, however, this isn't like the Republican argument that is used to justify flat taxes at all. The fact that we have those other taxes is precisely why I think our minimum wage can and should be higher than what one would expect in America.

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I support the EITC. I just don't think we need to keep expanding the EITC, and ignore the minimum wage. But I don't think you're trying to do that.

[Napoleon]

We've never had a rolling wage before. Small businesses that have a hard enough time catching up with inflation when it comes to existing operating costs will now have to deal with more costs. Sure, maybe the solution is to raise their prices for consumers, but that might negatively impact how well the business is able to compete with multinational corporations. Plus, if these small businesses do raise their prices to consumers, it'll see inflation rise, which, in turn, will require a wage hike.

Senator, the minimum wage has been tied to inflation here for years. I can't accept this argument.

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How is that the case?[/quote]

 People would be laid off[/quote]

I see. The rest of that post segment was just supply-side rhetoric, which has been proven to be a disaster.

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32 hours is not half a job. I don't know anyone who works 64 hours a week.[/quote]

I guess you missed the hyperbole. [/quote]

Sorry?

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Some people aren't making a good enough living for the amount of work they do regardless of hours. They just happen to be paid hourly.[/quote]

Fair enough, but if they're making minimum wage, they're still doing better than the people who are earning minimum wage but only get to work 32 hours a week. [/quote]

No doubt, but I do seek to enrich those lives further, satisfaction will only breed stagnation. We could do better.

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Because I don't support the sort of anti-family wage slave policy that keeps parents working all week while their kids sit mostly unattended in day care centers. People can and do work more than 32 hours, and they get compensated fairly with over time pay. I'm concerned about those who are at risk of having their lifestyle subject to the whims of a regional government. The poor are not pawns to be used in a political power play at the benefit of the corporations.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but the eight-hour work day is not "wage slave policy." It's a job. If so many people work it already, it can't exactly be too out of the mainstream. Except maybe the employers could hire more people if they weren't forced to pay overtime to these folks who are working what would be considered a normal day anywhere else. In Ontario, overtime pay only kicks in after 44 hours. [/quote]

I'm not sure why Ontario's law is that way but the US has had an 8 hour work day (40 hour week) since 1937. Do you think that 1930s policies are what we need right now (WW1 if you consider the Abramson Act)? The 40 hour work week was created at a time when families had one bread winner. The mother would stay home, take care of the children, etc. This is not the world we live in today. We live in a world where technology takes care of many things for us, where women work full-time, and so many other things have changed. You can feel free to take the Rick Santorum position that women should stay in the kitchen (or the Romney position- in binders), but the culture cannot simply be legislated away. Therefore, its our job as lawmakers to craft policies that fit the society we represent. 32 hours is enough to employ more people, give families time to raise their children, encourage recreation, rest, and relaxation and still be a productive employee in a world where technologies are developing and replacing once necessary human labor in many industries.

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I agree that a healthy middle class is necessary. Much like the thriving middle class we saw under the Fordist 40-hour work week.
[/quote]

Party name from the 1790s and policies from the 1920s. Joy.

[Napoleon]

I didn't intend to imply that you wanted to put women in the kitchen, and looking back, I can see how my wording (using the word "you") made it seem like I was directly referencing Senator Hagrid, but it was more of a general comment not aimed at anyone. Because of this obvious misunderstanding, much of your post will be difficult to respond to meaningfully, though I hope you understand that I was not insulting you (except for the party name part- that was a well-intended poke and I hope it was received as such).

I expected you understood how the minimum wage in Atlasia functioned when you voted in favor of the law that replaced the Living Wage Act a few months ago. We really ought to do a better job understanding the laws we vote for.

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If you're allowed to be hyperbolic and suggested that the hard-working people of this nation are only working "half-jobs", I should be allowed to be hyperbolic and point out how old fashioned the idea that we should extend the work week. I backed up that hyperbole with facts that show how much the work and social environments have changed in ways that affect the original intent of the forty hour work week. If you don't accept those arguments- fine, that's your point of view and you have the right to take that stand. But to accuse me of attacking you- that's incorrect and distracts from the issue. I certainly don't agree with you that we should extend the work week. I've already pointed out that we won't lose jobs for re-establishing a federal standard that is basically in effect.

Senator, I do not think we are going to reach a consensus here, and that's fine. We can do it respectfully. I apologize for being unclear with my previous statements, and I ask that in the future we can handle this privately so as to not create a distraction.

[Napoleon]

The amendment is unfriendly.

[Napoleon]

Living Wage Act

1) The federal minimum wage for those ages 18 and over shall be raised to $11.50 on July 1st, 2013 and $12.50 on January 1st, 2014 and $13.00 on July 1st, 2014.
2) Inflation-adjusted increases shall cease after July 1st, 2013.
3) Regions shall not be prohibited from petitioning the Department of Internal Affairs for temporary exemptions from these increases.
4) All employers that earn less then $1,000,000 a year in Gross Income, will be allowed to deduct 15% of the increased labor costs, resulting from the increase in the minimum wage, for the first 12 months of it being in effect. Qualification for the said deduction will be dependent upon no terminations of employment, for the purpose of downsizing, occuring during the period in which this deduction is claimed, unless currently in bankrupcty restructuring or has been losing money for atleast one quarter prior to the termination.

[Napoleon]

If Senator Snowstalker and others are willing to support the amendment I introduced, I'm happy to move forward with it. I think its a nice compromise. I didn't mean to sound dismissive or standoffish in my response to Senator Hagrid's concerns, but I'm proposing this anyway.

[Napoleon]

Are you ending inflation adjusted increases, Napoleon? I cannot support that.

I think Hagrid was talking about cost of living increases anyway, which is a completely different thing, but I think it could be a good idea to eliminate the inflation increases. Like Clarence said, it complicates things for many business owners to have to keep up with it, and I think inflation-increases are a way to kind of brush the issue aside as if future wage increases aren't necessary because of the inflation increases. Why tie it to inflation and not median per capita income or some other measure? I just think its beneficial to talk about issues like this at the highest level, with the inflation increases many people will think there is no reason to raise the minimum wage in the future I think.

Anyway, I am willing to ditch that problvision in favor of the original one if that works best for everyone. Im just trying to find a way to account for everything.

[Napoleon]

Look, I can't keep compromising with myself here. What, Marokai, will you support that benefits workers more than current policies do? Senator Sbane, I appreciate the effort but I oppose the amendment because it makes no sense. By the time 2015 rolls around, the minimum wage will have exceeded that due to inflation. Its too gradual.

Hagrid admitted that people will lose jobs if we extend the work week, which I would oppose anyway and I consider it a settled political issue. There is nothing viable down that road.

Im happy with the original text honestly.

[Napoleon]

I am going to consult with others before I decide whether to introduce an amendment. We will keep the minimum wage tied to inflation, I will see what other changes might need made.

[Napoleon]

Nay

[Napoleon]

I really hope the Senators know what they are voting for. We've already learned that people voted in favor of the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act without understanding the law. The federal minimum wage is already $10.50. The actual minimum wage is $12 in every region. By the time 2015 rolls around,  inflation will have surpassed that.

I love Sbane, but this amendment makes zero sense. I'll have to abdicate sponsorship if it passes.

[Napoleon]

I really hope the Senators know what they are voting for. We've already learned that people voted in favor of the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act without understanding the law. The federal minimum wage is already $10.50. The actual minimum wage is $12 in every region. By the time 2015 rolls around,  inflation will have surpassed that.

I love Sbane, but this amendment makes zero sense. I'll have to abdicate sponsorship if it passes.

So what you're saying is that the amendment would essentially kill inflation-adjusted increases?

No, I am saying it makes no sense to increase the minimum wage to 10.50 in July. The minimum wage has been 10.50 for over a year. The minimum wage in every region is at least $12, I think the Northeast its $14 or so. This amendment raises the minimum wage to $12.50 in 2015, but with inflation increases, every region will already be higher than that before then.

[Napoleon]

I really hope the Senators know what they are voting for. We've already learned that people voted in favor of the Right Wages for the Right Regions Act without understanding the law. The federal minimum wage is already $10.50. The actual minimum wage is $12 in every region. By the time 2015 rolls around,  inflation will have surpassed that.

I love Sbane, but this amendment makes zero sense. I'll have to abdicate sponsorship if it passes.

I proposed this because you told me in the committee that the current minimum wage is $9 per hour. If that is not the case, then yes it does not make sense. If it is $9 an hour, then imho my amendment is the right rate to raise the minimum wage.

Yeah, I must have slipped up in that case. Sorry about that.

I see what you are trying to do here, is to have the wage increase not be so drastic at once, which is something I tried to do with the original proposal. So I think we are largely aiming at the same goal.

What is the current minimum wage?

$9.

Has some new information come out about the minimum wage that I seem to have missed?

Not new information, but not the misinformation I provided. The Reasonable Minimum Wage Act created a $9 minimum wage, which is what I must have been looking at when I typed that, but that is not consistent with current law.

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So the minimum wage everywhere right now is effectively $12.00, but the federal minimum is $10.50.

Snowstalker and I want to raise the federal minimum to $11.50 and eventually, $12.50. The regions can still have the right wages for their economies, like the Northeast's higher minimum wage.

[Napoleon]

Well, others need to give input.

[Napoleon]

I will introduce a final amendment sometime today.

[Napoleon]

Aye