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  Something is annoying me (search mode)
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Author Topic: Something is annoying me  (Read 2239 times)
courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,488
United States


« on: July 15, 2011, 10:08:44 PM »

Shut up
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courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,488
United States


« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 12:03:04 AM »
« Edited: July 18, 2011, 12:08:13 AM by paul who is a ghost »

I think Antonio is on to something with regard to what is annoying you, Simfan24, but I'd put it a little differently.

Clinton wasn't a left-winger.  He helped found the DLC and then in his first presidential campaign dragged the Dems kicking and screaming to the center.  He "triangulated" on purpose.  He did get beat a few times, but this strategy was, particularly after Congress changed hands in '94, pretty successful; it got him reelected and produced lots of legislation he was able to pass.  

Obama has never been a left-winger either; he has always been mostly a centrist-reformer type, but more a conciliator than someone with his own legislative agenda.  Now, the GOP does not want to get hooked by the triangulation strategy again.  So, we get this dance where, with policies which you rightly note are fundamentally of GOP invention, when Obama moves one step toward them, the Pubbies move two steps right, and if Obama moves two steps toward them, the Pubbies move four steps right.  It all ends up being a pretty ugly dance in terms of crafting good legislation.  But, in terms of election politics, it does something for the GOP, it highlights differences that feed into a polarization narrative, and that gives something for people to choose between when they go to the polls.

The last real left-winger president was LBJ.  In terms of fiscal and government policy (not necessarily social policy), the "center" of U.S. politics has been moving steadily right ever since.

If fiscal policy had really swung so far to the 'right' since then we wouldn't have had such massive entitlement expansions under Reagan and Bush or various departments growing (or in some cases, being created) or the federal register continuing to balloon or any of the subsidies and tax breaks and bail outs enacted since 1981. Those are not 'small government' or 'free market' policies.

Here's what I think really happened in the '70s and after wards: the 'right' for all intents and purposes gave up on 'smaller government' as anything other than a buzzword/euphemism. They still throw it around but the bulk of the Republicans knows the voters don't really want any meaningful cuts in their programs, just for future beneficiaries at most. And they know that wall street and the rest of the two-party system's donors would never go for rolling back any of the above policies in any meaningful way. That's just not how you do business, especially when you're in perpetual campaign mode and rarely read any of the bills you sign anyway.

So instead of cutting government spending or RESTORING THE CONSTITUTION111 or any of the usual libertarian-sounding buzzwords the Tea Partiers and other people throw around the Republicans and a very large amount of Moderate Democrats focused on racialized issues like welfare or 'law and order' (drug war, death penalty, etc.) or the modern war on terror... Because they were crowd pleasers and gave them more power to regulate people's lives and make more money. And both sides basically decided to leave affirmative action alone because it has real PR use and having a government that looks 'like america' is more important than one that actually believes in what we were founded on.
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courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,488
United States


« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 12:00:17 PM »
« Edited: July 18, 2011, 12:15:48 PM by paul who is a ghost »

Ghost_white,

One of the things that explains the consistently high levels of spending on entitlements from the end of LBJ's term to now is the composition of Congress.  The House of Representatives was controlled by Democrats from 1969-1995, and therefore the Republican presidents who were in office at the time couldn't have made drastic cuts into entitlement spending even if they had wanted to (and I doubt Nixon or Ford did want to do much of this).

Reagan had a coalition of Republicans and Boll Weevil/Blue Dog Democrats in his first term, he could have been much more aggressive in making cuts. Not only did he not make any major cuts, he expanded things like the newly-created department of education and increased government involvement in the economy through subsidies... And then after he got his top marginal rate cuts in his 1st term he hiked taxes again, just on the poor and middle class through 'fees.' And of course hiked payroll to pay for medicare and social security, although really if he hadn't we'd probably be talking about President Mondale's term or something now.

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Okay.. but what did he actually do? I don't care what they ran on. My whole point is that it's lip service. Bush 41 again expanded government spending/intrusion and hiked taxes.

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That's true, but how many Americans put Clinton 'on the right'? Granted comparatively speaking, after the GOP gains he wound up governing more conservative on average than most post-New Deal presidents but that's not saying much. And again, look at the Contract for America... How much of that did the 'conservative Republicans' actually implement?

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Right.. which is my point. Bush's economic policies in no way can be called free market or 'fiscally conservative' or even simply 'more fiscally responsible than average.' Bush moved us in a more interventionist direction across the board. Even policies like tax rebates or social security 'privatization' were actually just examples of attempts at government intervention/manipulation of the economy under him. And that was with a Republican majority in control of all three branches and a high approval rating. Why is it then that he did so little especially in comparison to the things he used his '51% mandate' for in his second term? Because the country hadn't shifted more conservative on fiscal issues, not in public policy and certainly not in public opinion... And that's understandable, we had tons of inertia in place and a ballooning amount of aging people used to their benefits or expecting them by that point.

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Again, how have we moved 'right' on entitlement cuts at all? There's been some talk now about reducing the levels but that's after decades of letting them expand without any forethought and mostly because the government had already pocketed the money several times. Tax cuts alone don't constitute a more conservative/free market approach to policy making, you can be an interventionist/keynesian and embrace tax cuts or rebates as just another form of government stimulus.
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courts
Ghost_white
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,488
United States


« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 12:20:48 PM »

If fiscal policy had really swung so far to the 'right' since then we wouldn't have had such massive entitlement expansions under Reagan and Bush or various departments growing (or in some cases, being created) or the federal register continuing to balloon or any of the subsidies and tax breaks and bail outs enacted since 1981. Those are not 'small government' or 'free market' policies.

Here's what I think really happened in the '70s and after wards: the 'right' for all intents and purposes gave up on 'smaller government' as anything other than a buzzword/euphemism.

What I think is that you are confused that the 'right' ever meant 'smaller government'.  
Size isnt the defining issue; the issue is the purpose to which it is used.  

Considering they use that sort of framing all the time and Goldwater called Eisenhower a 'dime store new dealer' and proposed actual cuts and Reagan said the new deal was fascist inspired and attacked medicare and said people should be allowed to pull out of social security into the late 1970s I don't see how anything I said is unreasonable.
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