Poor conservatives, I don't get it. Righties please explain.

[Wonkish1]

3.) They believe its in their enlightened self-interests to support policies based on percieved systemic consequences and outcomes, and are convinced that the policies they support are in the best interests of the country, and therefore in the best interests for themselves in the long-term.

^^^^^^


Maybe instead it should be shocking that so many people vote for their own short term interest over their long term interests.

Look if every voter in the country thought like the OP the national debt would never be an issue and we'd be approaching our 3rd national bankruptcy.

Some people think long term and focus on things like jobs, career mobility, stability, safety, etc.  then it comes down to which party you think will deliver on these things, performance, etc.


Others vote on "What will you do for me tomorrow". And for that crowd if your poor you want as much benefits as you can get and your Dem, if your rich and republican its the lowest taxes you can get, and if your rich and a Dem than its how many more subsidies, government contracts you can get, or how much of a handout you can get from artificially low interest rates courtesy of the Fed--Why do you think there are so many Dem bankers?

Not everybody thinks about "What can you do for me tomorrow?", some think about "What can you do for me and my family over the next decade and beyond?"

[Wonkish1]

Just because many teenage to 20 something year old Dems on these forums think that whatever the tax rates are has no impact on the broad economy, prevalence of jobs, incomes, etc. doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of people in this country that disagree. And those things matter to yes even many poor people.

[Wonkish1]

Just because many teenage to 20 something year old Dems on these forums think that whatever the tax rates are has no impact on the broad economy, prevalence of jobs, incomes, etc. doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of people in this country that disagree. And those things matter to yes even many poor people.

Just because you disagree, doesn't mean you're necesssarily correct.

First of all, the question was about people doing whats in their own self interest. Many poor republicans don't want taxes to rise because they think it will effect their employment. That is much better answer than accusing of them being stupid or ignorant.

Second, its funny that someone who believes that whether marginal tax rates are 20% or 70%  they have no impact on the broad economy and then act like they represent an equal alternative view.

Just because you disagree, doesn't make you necessarily sane.

[Wonkish1]

A lot of this stems from GOP fear tactics of the past 25-30 years. They have been able to play on poor whites fears of race, homosexuality, change etc. and it has basically given them power.

It also doesn't help the Democrats have a reputation as out of touch and have really done nothing to change that narrative.

Here comes another ignorant shill ^^^^^ to furnish us with his oversimplified thought vomit.

[Wonkish1]

A lot of this stems from GOP fear tactics of the past 25-30 years. They have been able to play on poor whites fears of race, homosexuality, change etc. and it has basically given them power.

It also doesn't help the Democrats have a reputation as out of touch and have really done nothing to change that narrative.

Here comes another ignorant shill ^^^^^ to furnish us with his oversimplified thought vomit.

What part of that was inaccurate?

So you want to advertise yourself as ignorant as well?

[Wonkish1]

"Poor conservatives" aren't a large group of people.

And you are right Phk,

I share alot of commonalty with Don on this. My mother's side of the family is from an overwhelmingly white rural Republican area that has an Appalachian culture.

Most of the people who live there are socially conservative, in which the church and their faith(which is usually generic non-denominational "Bible Church", Methodist, or Catholic) plays an important part of their lives and for many guides their vote. Most of the people who live there are ether of Scots-Irish(American descent) or German, but there is also very large numbers of people who have Irish, Italian, French Canadian, or Eastern European lineage/ names. The county where my mother's side is from usually votes anywhere from 66%-77% GOP in elections across the board.  

Unlike what most of the teenage and other Dems on this forum typicality stereotype the people in the area I'm talking about are typically middle class or well-off/established working class. What I mean by this is that most make a comfortable salary for an area with a much lower cost of living then major cities or suburbs as well as hold a steady job. Many own their own home(not a trailer home). And despite the fact that many did not go to college, are able to send their own children onto higher education. Additionally, many from area that go on to college and further schooling that return or even if they don't still are pretty conservative overall.
  
However, many of the poor whites in question( that those who don't know what they are talking about) who receive state or other benefits actually don't vote like the same pattern many poor minority groups also show. And if they do, many actually vote Democratic because they support giving them all those welfare goodies etc.

Likewise, in the community I'm talking about some also still vote Democratic. There is alot of older retiree's who were in working class occupations who value social security, that vote Democratic in considerable numbers, however many of these grew up voting for the Dems. There are also a solid number of people who are members of labor unions who Democratic because they see the Republicans as an antithesis on this issue. Still some just don't like or trust the GOP because of the economic reforms & deregulation of the 1980's, which some blame for hitting communities like the one I'm describing hard. And many just vote Democratic out of habit or the past, since the community I'm describing is in what was once a Democratic leaning state.

So I think it goes to show how erroneous and partisan the thinking is in this thread.

To be sure though Appalachia, Iron Range, and Great Lakes territory is some of the last rural areas to start abandoning the Dems. Most rural areas dumped them years ago.

[Wonkish1]

First of all, the question was about people doing whats in their own self interest. Many poor republicans don't want taxes to rise because they think it will effect their employment. That is much better answer than accusing of them being stupid or ignorant.

This is obviously just an experiential observation and not based on hard data, but poor Republicans whom I know tend to emphasize, in ascending order of importance:

5) Perception of government as inefficient and incompetent
4) Opposition to welfare
3) Traditional religious values (these rank much higher for some)
2) Resentment of cultural and academic elites whom they see as the agenda-setters for the Democratic Party
1) Pride in who they are (in terms of their values and lifestyles) & hostility to change that might threaten their way of life (immigration, non-traditional lifestyles, economic restructuring, multiculturalism, etc.)

I don't think that self-interest is a good way of explaining the voting behaviors of any group, whether they tend to vote for Republicans or Democrats.

While I might quibble with the way you put number 1, I would agree with assessment.

The original OP though was about a poor conservative complaining about the idea of tax rates going up. Why would people like him care? Because they think it will affect their employment, salary, and standard of living even if the brunt of the tax increases aren't directed squarely at them.

Granted poor conservatives that focus on the list you just provided outnumber poor FiCons, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of poor FiCons out there(especially among younger folks). And its reasonably safe to assume that the people the OP is referring to that decry tax increases are more likely to be in the group I just mentioned not the one that you provided at the top.

But again we are also speaking in generalities here. There isn't a really a fine line between poor cultural conservatives and poor FiCons since there is large amounts of overlap.

[Wonkish1]

Since when are tax deductions 'programs'? Is that more 'spending in the tax code' I wasn't aware of?

They have the same effect as "programs."

No they don't. They are completely different things. And this only further demonstrates that you don't really have a clue as to what your talking about.

[Wonkish1]

How are they different?

Well first of all do you even know what the effect of a deduction is? If I buy something and its deductible what happens?

There is an argument that a tax ****credit**** is a subsidy and I agree with that argument, but a subsidy is still not a program.

A program is government expenditure where a government entity have oversight control in its implementation. Medicare is a government program. Food stamps is a government program.

A tax credit for research and development is not a program it is a subsidy.

[Wonkish1]

It implies more than just spending, even. It implies something administered.

Bingo!

[Wonkish1]

While I might quibble with the way you put number 1, I would agree with assessment.

The original OP though was about a poor conservative complaining about the idea of tax rates going up. Why would people like him care? Because they think it will affect their employment, salary, and standard of living even if the brunt of the tax increases aren't directed squarely at them.

Granted poor conservatives that focus on the list you just provided outnumber poor FiCons, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of poor FiCons out there(especially among younger folks). And its reasonably safe to assume that the people the OP is referring to that decry tax increases are more likely to be in the group I just mentioned not the one that you provided at the top.

But again we are also speaking in generalities here. There isn't a really a fine line between poor cultural conservatives and poor FiCons since there is large amounts of overlap.

But they do pay taxes. Here in New Jersey when they doubled the budget from $16 billion to $33 billion they increased taxes on poor conservatives.

Why?

Mostly to pay for massive increases in Medicaid and massive increases in the hiring of unproductive teachers and state workers. Neither of which benefits the common man.

1) That is state level
2) Regardless they still are net receivers of benefits not net payers to the government.

[Wonkish1]

Too bad she didn't have any self control or teach it to her offspring.

You d*ck!!

[Wonkish1]

I actually am in finance and I would strongly advise someone (especially young) to not place all of their income in bonds.  Especially today, but in general as well.

You can easily take losses in bond funds. The fact that we have had a 30 year bull run in fixed income gives some people the allusion that it is safer than it actually is plus there is inflation concern.

I'm also not in the camp of people that believe you should leverage your portfolio when your young. I'm aware of those that say that, but they also are way underestimating what volatility can do to a leveraged portfolio. I do recommend arbing the margin interest rate if the opportunity presents itself though, but that is a completely different story than leveraging into stocks.

[Wonkish1]

There's a limit to what frugality (especially with respect to durable goods) can accomplish when an increasingly large portion of the household budget goes toward essential services like healthcare and education. Gas, food, and housing prices also play an important role.

But you've got to agree that its quite impressive to see how frugal new immigrants(from developing countries) are able to be in the US and the unbelievably high savings rates they have on low incomes.

[Wonkish1]

I honestly haven't had much contact with low-income immigrants in the United States, so I won't presuppose anything about their typical lifestyles.

I'll concede to you the broader point that there are ways for people to lower their expenses. They can limit spending on entertainment, buy used goods, live in smaller houses, maintain fewer cars and drive fewer miles, and be more price conscious.

There are also more destructive ways in which people can lower their spending. They might not visit a dentist, they might not buy healthful foods, they might be more hesitant to go to a doctor when they experience troubling symptoms or they might contribute less to the education of their children.

My point is that I don't accept the assumption that people will be able to save enough for a secure retirement by eliminating luxuries, inefficiencies and frivolities from the household budget. Financial discipline is important, but it's limited. Furthermore, it's possible to be too frugal - it is sometimes a good choice to borrow to invest in your health or education (or the health and education of your children).

See that is where you just don't know much about time value of money(compound interest), saving, etc.

Try like $7 a day. That's it and that is adjusted for a high inflation average(3%) and using conservative estimates(9%)-- 9-3=6% assumption.