The Moral Failings of Christianity - New Testament as a Shield

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

By the way, Dibble, what faith are you? And do you realize that the Old Testament is much less organized than the New Testament, things came from different sources (Job is said to have come from places such as Arabia), and that not everything is literal/and/or true in the Old Testament?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

How can you be an athiest and argue about morals? Where do you get the sense that morals can logically exist, and that you of all people are right?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

How can you be an athiest and argue about morals? Where do you get the sense that morals can logically exist, and that you of all people are right?

It's true that as an atheist I don't subscribe to the view that there's some deity out there that is in one fashion or another dictating what is or is not moral. My basis for morals have to come from elsewhere. Fortunately we humans don't need an outside source - our own nature gives us at least some basis for moral behavior. We evolved to be social animals, and as part of that all but a few have empathy for one another, which allows us to develop compassion. (the exception is sociopaths and psychopaths, who lack empathy)

From there we can build our moral principles on things like the Golden Rule and utilitarianism, using facts and logic to determine what we think is or is not moral. Of course, people have different perspectives and different desired outcomes, so I can't say that my particular morality is right for everyone, nor can I say that I think it's always going to be right for me - since I don't know everything it's likely that I'll receive new information in the future which will require that I change some aspect of my morality. Even if it might not be 100% correct, what I can say about my moral system is that I believe that if people were to adhere to it that it would produce results that are desirable and fair to most individuals, and to a far greater extent than the one advanced in the Bible.

If you are interested in learning a bit more about secular morality and have a free hour and a half I advise watching this lecture. It goes into the subject a bit more.

As a strong believer in the existence of God, I have a few questions, though I have a feeling you don't want this thread converted into an Atheism vs. Religion thread:
1) How was the universe created (if you think you know)? If it was the "Big Bang", then how did it happen?
2) Aren't humans just random assortments of amino acids, if we aren't created with some sort of purpose?
3) If you belive that humans have a desire to do good, where does that come from?
4) Where do rights come from? If they're decided using logic alone, doesn't the logic rely on certain assumptions about humans (that humans are smarter, can use logic, etc.)?
5) Wouldn't a logical athiest come to the conclusion that there are no immortal consequences for his/her actions, and that the smartest thing to do with his/her limited time on the plante is to have a good time?
6) If there is no God, what in the hell are we doing here?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

By immortal conequences I mean a Heaven/Hell scenario.

You make an intelligent argument, I'll give you that, but it seems like your entire argument about human rights is based on the existence of the emotion empathy, which, according to science, is just a certain chemical reaction in the brain, isn't it?

As for what the hell God is doing here, well, I don't know, but from what I've heard, within the last 2050 years, He's sent down His son, a third of the Holy Trinity to die for our sins. (you're probably going to say something about this)

As for an afterlife, doesn't that mean, according to your stated beliefs, that once a person dies, that person is gone forever, and once his/her name is forgotten, isn't it like he/whe never existed? That seems like a both pointless and sad existence, going through life, and then being nothing.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

As for my specific denomination, take the first four letters in my username, and add an "olic" to it, and you've got it.

As for why I believe what I believe, I actually asked myself that around Easter time earlier this year. I was going through my head my specific beliefs, and I started wondering if I was Jewish, when I realized that I believe in an after-life, and that Christianity is the fullfillment of the Jewish faith. However, as for what I've been arguing with you about for the last page or two isn't about a specific faith, but more about the belief in God, which I consider important to society and to humanity.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

However, as for what I've been arguing with you about for the last page or two isn't about a specific faith, but more about the belief in God, which I consider important to society and to humanity.

Even if we take that as a starting point it leads to the question 'which god?' and 'which revelation?' if the faith itself isn't so specific for you. Remember the faith and associated acts of worship stem from the belief and unfortunately for those who support the idea of a god there are dozens if not hundreds of religions that stem from the belief each claiming to exclusively know the mind of god.

The idea of a god or something so extraordinary that we have no other word for it but god exists. But it is a huge leap to believe that if there is it has the slightest interest in us. It's an even larger leap to suggest that not only does it have an interest but I can tell you how it thinks through the Torah, Bible, Koran etc. And of course if all the above is true....who is correct? Who is correct amongst the multitude of sects within each world faith. Who is correct amongst the millions if not billions of 'personal gods'; the beliefs that individuals hold about their deity.

I personally have a kind of "wait and see" attitude. At the very least, I hope that I'm right about two things: 1, there is a God, and 2, he is merciful. If both are correct, then I hope that if I am wrong on everything else, that when I die, God would rather enlighten me than cast me into Hell for being wrong. However, if there is no God, then having the right faith isn't important at all, because in the end you're going to die and become nothing; which means that life is more about enjoying it than being right.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

However, as for what I've been arguing with you about for the last page or two isn't about a specific faith, but more about the belief in God, which I consider important to society and to humanity.

Even if we take that as a starting point it leads to the question 'which god?' and 'which revelation?' if the faith itself isn't so specific for you. Remember the faith and associated acts of worship stem from the belief and unfortunately for those who support the idea of a god there are dozens if not hundreds of religions that stem from the belief each claiming to exclusively know the mind of god.

The idea of a god or something so extraordinary that we have no other word for it but god exists. But it is a huge leap to believe that if there is it has the slightest interest in us. It's an even larger leap to suggest that not only does it have an interest but I can tell you how it thinks through the Torah, Bible, Koran etc. And of course if all the above is true....who is correct? Who is correct amongst the multitude of sects within each world faith. Who is correct amongst the millions if not billions of 'personal gods'; the beliefs that individuals hold about their deity.

I personally have a kind of "wait and see" attitude. At the very least, I hope that I'm right about two things: 1, there is a God, and 2, he is merciful. If both are correct, then I hope that if I am wrong on everything else, that when I die, God would rather enlighten me than cast me into Hell for being wrong. However, if there is no God, then having the right faith isn't important at all, because in the end you're going to die and become nothing; which means that life is more about enjoying it than being right.

You are aware that if you are wrong (and I for that matter) and that Islam is 'the one' then you go straight to hell? The reason I ask this is that you seem to be expecting something from a god that neither Christianity or Islam for example allow for; mercy for not believeing or holding the wrong belief. Do you believe that you would be held in higher regarding for picking the 'wrong god' than I would be for not believing in any?

You also seem to making the assumption that not having a faith makes one frivolous and vapid. I held a faith until early this year. I now do not; it hasn't changed my morals, how I treat others or my outlook on life in the slightest.

1) If Islam is the one, then a large majority of us are screwed.
2) I personally think, that if the true God is the Christian God, then he woudl rather enlighten people than send the to Hell, however, I don't know that for a fact.
3) I don't believe lack of a religion makes you frivoloud or superficial, but I do believe that that is the logical course, given that I believe a logical atheist woudl just do whatever he/she wanted, knowing that there was no god to care, and that the only thing worth doing in a godless world would be having a good time. But that's just me.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

1) If Islam is the one, then a large majority of us are screwed.

That's the case if the Christian one is the one as well.

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On what basis do you believe that? The Bible indicates otherwise.

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I've already refuted this argument, but it's apparent you don't agree. I suggest you actually take the time to go out and meet some atheists and get to know them - you might be surprised.

1) However, there's a larger amount of people in Christianity than in Islam
2) From what I've heard and read, Jesus didn't ask for a word on word interpretation of what God wants us to do, but isntead to do good acts, and to love and serve God. There's also the old phrase (which I don't really believe), "sure we know there's a Hell, but is anyone in it?" I've had teachers who have also brought up the example of a good person living in a village where no-onehad ever heard of Christianity. However, it is believed if that person serves his family/religion/morality/whatever faithfully, that when he/she dies, that person will be accepted into heaven.
3) I honestly am not surrounded by many atheists. The only one I know, a Korean foreign exchange student, woudl rather not argue about it. However, I will gladly bug Kalwejt or Hashemite with orders saying you told me to do so.

By the way, I still find it very interesting to find out where atheists get their morals from. Just, for example, where does one get the idea that life is sacred? We are, after all, scientifically, only the products of evolution, or to pull something from an Ayn Rand book (the character that said this was not a protagonist), cells with an illusion of grandeur.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

1) However, there's a larger amount of people in Christianity than in Islam

Given current population trends it is projected that in a couple of decades Islam will overtake Christianity in number of adherents.

Sadly...

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Dibble must be glad. He's posted only one topic on the "moral failings of Christianity", and already he's up to five pages.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Just thinking out loud here, but...

Isn't atheism the belief that if you see a structure, it's believable that not only was it created by nothing, but it's perfectly logical, and the presence of a builder woudl not be required?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Just thinking out loud here, but...

Isn't atheism the belief that if you see a structure, it's believable that not only was it created by nothing, but it's perfectly logical, and the presence of a builder woudl not be required?

     No, not really. Many atheists make no claim as to knowing how the universe came to be; they just do not believe that the Christian God or any other deity had a role in the process.

Indeed.

Cathcon, you seem to know very little about athiesm.

I'm going by what Dibble said. I recall him saying that, according to a lecture he saw or something he read, that it would be scientifically possible for the universe to have been created without a God.

It seems like you're saying that atheism says "Look, religion, we don't know how the univerese was created, but we know for a fact that it didn't involve any deity". That doesn't sound like a very reasonable statement to my ears.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

It seems like you're saying that atheism says "Look, religion, we don't know how the univerese was created, but we know for a fact that it didn't involve any deity". That doesn't sound like a very reasonable statement to my ears.

Allow me to clarify - what I said is that our current understanding of quantum mechanics makes a deity redundant in the creation of the universe. By redundant I mean that it isn't a necessary component. A deity may very well have been involved, but what we do know indicates that it would not have to have been a part of it. Of course, there are still gaps in our knowledge, like knowing why the laws of quantum mechanics exist. Still, there is no evidence for there being some kind of intelligence creating them, so it isn't logically sound to assume that there was.

How?

(now, I"m gonna go through this step by step so it's easier for you to debunk it)

Doesn't the Big Bang Theory (if that's what you're going on) claim that the universe started out as a dot the size of a period (how the hell did that get there?), and that for some reason, it exploded?

Then through no act of God, centers of gravity formed, around which dust particles began to orbit, heating up and creating balls of earth and rock called planets...

After which, a series of chemicals descended upon the earth, giving us gases like oxygen...

Then, at the same time, chemicals began forming amino acids, which had the ability to create the first form of life...

Apparently, in the newly created ocean, which came from Oxygen and Hydrogen, the first cell appeared called a Euglena, which was sort of a cross between a plant and animal cell, and somehow this thing came to being with DNA and instincts which taught it how to live...

bacteria (or something), plants, waterlife, etc. somehow all come from this first cell (or was it multiple, independently created cells?), and slowly but surely, evolved into modern life as we know it.

All without any intent from on high to do so. Seems like a pointless, random, and lonely world to live in, if you ask me.

Excuse the crudeness of this narrative, I'm using what I remember from science class. Knowing how this works, a large amount of my data I somehow screwed up.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

In response to afleitch, where did the alien come from? How did the time traveler get there? Where did the fish get his magnificent powers?

Nothing does not make as much relevant sense as God. God means that this came from somewhere, nothing means that everything we do is the result of the randomness of the universe which was created, somehow, by nothing.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Sad thing is about atheism...If you're right, you're never gonna find out.

Re: Pointless, Lonely, and Random: I'm referring to outside of earth. If there is no God (or other creation), then everything, from the moment of creation would, frommy perspective, seem to be the result of the randomness of science. When I imagine a world without God, I imagine plante earth hurling through light years of nothingness, with nothing beyond the stars.

Yes, we do have each other, but in the end, when you're all alone, you're alone. You (if there's no God) don't have a fellow human, and you don't even have the Lord to find solace in.

Re: Creator:
God, obviously make more sense than a fish, right?
And, I don't know what you think, but it would be more likely that God is the Alpha and the Omega, and not the fish.

Then, of course, we can paraphrase Pat Buchanan, and say "The existence of the laws of physics implies the existence of a lawmaker".

Either way it's confusing:
If there's earth how did it get here?
If there's God, how did He get here?

However, it seems more likely (in my mind) that there would be a creator than none.

I'm not sure what other creation stories are like, but let's take the Greek Creation story. They were such at a loss for an idea on how the world was created that they admitted in their creation story something like "...and through some strok of fate, we don't know how..." The Christian version seems to sound much more definite:
There was God
God created earth
God created things on the earth

This is just a collection of random thought on God that I've picked up since I was five to present day.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I see the Atheists are doing another recruitment drive.

When are they not?