Gay Marriage- a general discussion.

[Smash255]

I have a problem with those that use the bible argument.

By the way before you start accusing me of being an atheist or anti-Christian I'm not in fact I am a Christian.

Anyway the problem I have with the argument is those that say the bible says its wrong so it must be wrong, I don't agree with that argument.  We are in different times.  Parts of the bible call for slaves to obey their masters, wives to submit to their husbands, for the husband to be in charge of the relationship and not a 50/50 partnership.

So those that say gay marriage is wrong because the bible says being gay is wrong, well do you think slavery is right?  Or the man controlling everything instead of having an equal partnership is right??

[Smash255]

By the way before you start accusing me of being an atheist or anti-Christian I'm not in fact I am a Christian.

Ok, then tell us from what acts Jesus was commanding people to repent?

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We are in different times.

Are we or are we not still under the New Covenant?  And if we are, how did you conclude that rules of the New Covenant changed and who do you think changed them?

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So those that say gay marriage is wrong because the bible says being gay is wrong, well do you think slavery is right?

The NT did NOT state that slavery was right.  In fact, an entire book of the NT is set aside on the subject with Paul instructing a slave owner (Philemon) "to do what you ought to do" and give the slave (Onesimus) his freedom.

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Or the man controlling everything instead of having an equal partnership is right??

I see you have a problem accepting the fact that God created Eve to be a help-mate for Adam.   And I guess you have a problem with the bible comparing the authority between Christ and the Church to the authority between a husband and a wife...or maybe  you think the rules have changed and the Church now is in a 50-50 relationship with Christ so that the Church no longer has to obey Christ.

You need to read the verses in the bible that include the word "covenant".  I trust you will find that whenever God makes a covenant, he does NOT change the rules of the covenant.

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I have a problem with those that use the bible argument....the problem I have with the argument is those that say the bible says its wrong so it must be wrong, I don't agree with that argument.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jesus himself quote scripture to prove right from wrong?  Do you have a problem with Christ quoting scripture?  Aren't you, a Christian, supposed to be imitating Christ?

Did it express exactly that slavery was right??  Well no, but telling slaves to obey their masters???

It said that wives should SUBMIT to their husbands.  Basically that husbands should own their wife.  Now we have come past that haven't we??  Or do you honestly think you should own your wife?? and that she should have to submit to you??  How backwards is that???

[Smash255]

Did it express exactly that slavery was right??  Well no, but telling slaves to obey their masters???

Slaves obeying their masters is NOT condoning slavery.  It simply means that if you yourself are a slave, then pour yourself into your work, knowing that it is Christ whom you serve.  It also says that "if you can gain your freedom, do so." (1Cor 7:21)

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It said that wives should SUBMIT to their husbands.  Basically that husbands should own their wife.  Now we have come past that haven't we??  Or do you honestly think you should own your wife?? and that she should have to submit to you??  How backwards is that???

Submitting doesn't mean owning, it simply means obeying.  I obey a lot of things (city law, county law, state law, federal law, my boss), but that doesn't mean that I am owned by these things.  For no one owns me except Christ.

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Also, you failed to respond to my question:  Are we still under the authority of the New Covenant?  If so, then how did you conclude that the laws of the covenant have been changed?


You also failed to respond to this question:

I have a problem with those that use the bible argument....the problem I have with the argument is those that say the bible says its wrong so it must be wrong, I don't agree with that argument.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Jesus himself quote scripture to prove right from wrong?  Do you have a problem with Christ quoting scripture?  Aren't you, a Christian, supposed to be imitating Christ?

The problem is when people use the bible as a way to hate or deny people rights.  For wives submitting to your husbands, that basically means owning, obeying that what a husband says goes.  That line of thinking is so backward.  My point is this the general theme of the bible is good, but to believe things as so black & white word for word is wrong because when you look at various passages of the bible some of them make absoltley no sense in today's world and go against what we stand for as a country such as equal rights

[Smash255]

The problem is when people use the bible as a way to hate or deny people rights.  For wives submitting to your husbands, that basically means owning, obeying that what a husband says goes.  That line of thinking is so backward.  My point is this the general theme of the bible is good, but to believe things as so black & white word for word is wrong because when you look at various passages of the bible some of them make absoltley no sense in today's world and go against what we stand for as a country such as equal rights

So, then, you believe the Apostle Paul was being hateful and denying women rights when he instructed women to follow the Garden of Eden pattern by submitting to their husbands?

And you also believe the same of the Apostle Peter?

I don't know if I would say hateful.  What I am saying is times have changed.  While the general message of the bible as a whole is a good message not everything that is in the bible is relevant 2,000 years later because times have changed.  The way the world worked back then is different than the way the world works now.  Just because it was ok for men to control their wives back then, doesn't make it ok for men to control their wives now, and the same thing is true in certain other issues today.  Overall concept, good, but that does not mean that everything in the bible is correct 2000 years later

[Smash255]

1st) Human nature has NOT changed since the garden, that is why God's word is revelant.

2nd) It was not society that placed man as the head of the woman, rather it was God himself:

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen 3:16)

3rd)  Since it was God himself who put a wife in submission to her husband, who is telling you that God changed his rules?

the bible in part is the writer's interpretation of God's word, not exactly God words himseelf.  to believe a man should control is wife is just plain SAD.  What do you think the wives job is.  To cook, clean & be in the kitchen barefoot & Pregnant???  If it was up to you would you ban women from the workplace??  Ban women from voting???

[Smash255]

to believe a man should control is wife is just plain SAD.  

No, what is sad is that you have allowed yourself to give way to your fear (2Pet 3:6).

I wrote this thinking you were a women.  Then I read your profile- your a 'male'!  So here is some advice:

1) Get control of your imagination by studying the word of God.  Then you won't be tossed to and fro by fine sounding arguments.

2) God has given you, as a man, certain responsiblilities.  Therefore, obey God and be the type of man he is asking you to be.  Stop listening to world, it wants to change you into something you're not.

I have some advice for you as well

STOP THE HATE.  If you trully believed in god's Word you would not discriminate against others.

2  Welcome to 2004, this is not 0004

[Smash255]

I love it when people bring up Greece on this issue because it makes my point fairly well.  In ancient Greece, even if a man was gay, he still married a woman and fathered her children.  Marriage was even then about child raising.  Despite being gay, the man would be with a woman in marriage.

For the record:

A gay person doesn't have the right to marry another man, but neither does a straight person.  The only difference is that the gay person wants that right and a straight person doesn't.  There is no disparity; a gay man can still, as in ancient Greece, marry a woman and sire children.

On a similar note:
After the 13th amendment to the US Constitution, former slave owners lost their rights to own slaves.  However, at the same time abolitionists too lost THEIR slave owning rights.  The only difference was that the slave owners wanted that right and the abolitionists did not.

For starters comparing gay marriage to slavery is insane

Secondly yes a gay person can marry a straight person, but thats bot what its avout.  You and I are able to marry the person we love, a gay person wants that same right to marry the person that they love.