11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[DrScholl]

An 11 year old should not have a baby that is the result of a rape. Men can't get pregnant so there aren't many other analogies than STDs. How would you feel if you were attacked and left with syphilis or gonorrhea or HIV? That would be the most sickening feeling ever.

[DrScholl]

What is not clicking here? It's beyond sick to want anyone to have a baby that is the result of rape.  Being raped is horribly traumatic alone and to be forced to carry out a pregnancy will only further compound that trauma.

[DrScholl]

Damn, I hope she can get an abortion. Absolutely disgusting.

But, but, nobody likes abortion!

I am so very smart, he thought to himself as he typed his latest brilliant retort, nearly unable to contain his giddiness at the thought of a traumatized 11 year old rape victim facing permanent disability and possible death as she’s forced to give birth to a likely-unviable fetus with severe health complications. I’m the complete package. Unending compassion, a paragon of morality and virtue, and the most brilliant mind of this generation.

Obviously what she is going through is horrible, but the baby shouldn't be murdered for the crimes of the father.

Would you be so cavalier if someone in your family or a friend was in such a position?

[DrScholl]

Debating what is more traumatic is ridiculous and this debate is becoming more absurd. The entire situation is already traumatic and if terminating the pregnancy saves the girl's life (and sanity) then that is the proper choice in the long run.

[DrScholl]

At one time no exceptions was only the standard among very far-right conservatives, but it seems as if no exceptions is not being pushed in policy. Pushing for no exceptions even for rape is a bridge too far for a lot of voters and Republicans are going to alienate even more people if they push this.

[DrScholl]

None of this justifies the killing of an unborn life. 

The only POSSIBLE exception I would make on the abortion question is if continuing the pregnancy would, truly, kill the mother, and that the abortion was an act of immediate self-defense.  I define this extremely narrowly; such an act would have to truly be something that would prevent a mother from dying in the next half-hour or something like this.  Even here, I am reluctant to give an inch, as the pro-infanticide faction will then take a mile. 

As far as ignorance goes, your credentials along those lines are presented every time you log on and post.

That's pretty awful.  You don't even know if the fetus would survive, but don't save the mother!

The folks I am debating here are a combination of intellectually dishonest and unreasonable.

You seem to be a bit better than the Frodos and Harrys of this thread.  I can imagine speaking to you and at least have an understanding of where each of us is coming from.  What I'm advocating is that abortion MIGHT be permissible if there were some medical condition where the fetus was actually killing the mother in the here and now.  What I'm NOT advocating is prescribing an abortion due to the mother's mental health issue, potential for postpartum depression, etc.  Those scenarios are advanced by some in the "life of the mother" argument.  I don't agree with that thinking.

Yeah, I'm going to need a retraction and sincere public apology for that. You know that I have always stuck up for you and insisted that your viewpoints (warped and illogical as I believe they are) be portrayed accurately and fairly. You repay me with venom and cheap shots that aren't even true.

I'll retract the pro-infanticide comment.  While I believe abortion is infanticide, I believe that most folks (yourself included) are sincerely deceived as to what abortion actually is.  That, I will do.

That's all I'll retract.

Abortion will never be banned. Get over it.

[DrScholl]

None of this justifies the killing of an unborn life. 

The only POSSIBLE exception I would make on the abortion question is if continuing the pregnancy would, truly, kill the mother, and that the abortion was an act of immediate self-defense.  I define this extremely narrowly; such an act would have to truly be something that would prevent a mother from dying in the next half-hour or something like this.  Even here, I am reluctant to give an inch, as the pro-infanticide faction will then take a mile. 

As far as ignorance goes, your credentials along those lines are presented every time you log on and post.

That's pretty awful.  You don't even know if the fetus would survive, but don't save the mother!

The folks I am debating here are a combination of intellectually dishonest and unreasonable.

You seem to be a bit better than the Frodos and Harrys of this thread.  I can imagine speaking to you and at least have an understanding of where each of us is coming from.  What I'm advocating is that abortion MIGHT be permissible if there were some medical condition where the fetus was actually killing the mother in the here and now.  What I'm NOT advocating is prescribing an abortion due to the mother's mental health issue, potential for postpartum depression, etc.  Those scenarios are advanced by some in the "life of the mother" argument.  I don't agree with that thinking.

Yeah, I'm going to need a retraction and sincere public apology for that. You know that I have always stuck up for you and insisted that your viewpoints (warped and illogical as I believe they are) be portrayed accurately and fairly. You repay me with venom and cheap shots that aren't even true.

I'll retract the pro-infanticide comment.  While I believe abortion is infanticide, I believe that most folks (yourself included) are sincerely deceived as to what abortion actually is.  That, I will do.

That's all I'll retract.

Abortion will never be banned. Get over it.

Get over the fact that I won't give up on this life and death issue.

I hope every post I make on this subject causes you the sort of discomfort that moves a conscience.

It doesn't bother me. I'm just stating the obvious. The Republican establishment doesn't really want abortion banned because it would eliminate a turnout booster for hardcore conservatives. It's all a game that really isn't even about abortion, but political power.

[DrScholl]

Fuzzy Bear accuses others of being over the top, but he's put his personal family business on this forum to argue over politics and that is the definition of over the top.

[DrScholl]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

How is any of that disgusting?
You think abortion is less disgusting?

It's less disgusting than your post basically saying that a rape baby is an affirmation of hope. That is truly sickening and the lowest I've seen anyone stoop while posting on this board.

[DrScholl]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

How is any of that disgusting?
You think abortion is less disgusting?

It's less disgusting than your post basically saying that a rape baby is an affirmation of hope. That is truly sickening and the lowest I've seen anyone stoop while posting on this board.

I think calling someone a "rape baby" in order to devalue them is pretty disgusting myself.

I'm sorry to have offended you. It's not every day that someone is blessed with a baby after they get raped, so let's rejoice! Hallelujah! Praise Jesus! /sarc

Calling a pregnancy that is the result of a rape an affirmation of hope is absurd.

[DrScholl]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

Imagine if you actually understood how sick and twisted your logic is.

[DrScholl]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

[DrScholl]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

It's not a low opinion, it's an acknowledgement of reality. In that situation a victim isn't going to necessarily operate in a normal mental state.

It's really interesting that you are so passionate about this. Must be personal for you. It's just very interesting and I should leave it at that.

[DrScholl]

Another thing I don't understand about conservatives is that they are always complaining about welfare, but hate abortion which reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies that could otherwise result in children being raised on welfare. You all are so against welfare so it seems to me that you'd support abortion if it meant that your tax dollars weren't spent on welfare.

[DrScholl]

Are you claiming every baby who goes up for adoption is swiftly adopted into a loving home? Because my wife and I went to a meeting at an adoption agency, and half of the couples straight up left the meeting when they were informed the available babies were almost certain to be black.

I was wondering if this was an issue. There are a whole lot of people out there who aren't going to adopt black children (or other children of color) and that's unfortunate.

[DrScholl]

During the Bush era where Republicans in the House were pushing through anti-abortion bills I do not recall even the most pro-life members ever even suggesting that there be no exceptions. That's an extreme position.

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

"Don’t make a noise or I’ll kill you." I lay terrified as he ripped off my clothes and raped me. As a slim sixteen-year-old, I was no match for him. He threatened to come after me if I told anyone, so I lay motionless in a cloud of pain and nausea as he disappeared into the night.

Our house was empty, and I rushed to cleanse myself of the horrible dirty feeling that clung to me. I threw away my torn clothes, immersed myself in a hot tub, and scrubbed till my skin ached. By the time Mom got home from work, I was huddled silently in bed. I didn’t dare tell anyone what happened.

The next morning I tried again to wash away the dirty feeling, but nothing worked. I lost my appetite, was haunted by nightmares, and couldn’t concentrate in school. I kept looking over my shoulder, certain he was coming back for me. Somehow I thought God must not care about me. Maybe He was even punishing me.

The thought of pregnancy hadn’t occurred to me at first, so for four months I denied the possibility. I insisted to myself that my queasiness was just a touch of the flu, and my missed periods were due to shock.

But a doctor’s exam finally erased all doubt. I cried all the way home from his office.

Though I could no longer hide that I was pregnant, I still didn’t tell anyone about the rape. Mom had been abandoned by my dad before I was born, and she worked hard to support us. She had no idea what I was really going through, and her words couldn’t comfort my hurts and fears. We’d never been very close, and I felt increasingly alone.

Surprisingly, the nightmares diminished as I felt the baby move. This new life brought the first glimmer of healing from the rape. As the months passed, I started to think this child would fill the void that had ached inside me for so long. I eagerly waited for the day when I’d hold my baby in my arms.

Kay Zibolsky

A 16 year old thinks differently than an 11 year old so there is no comparison. A five year age difference can be like a lifetime at that stage of life. Second, this young woman had no father and wasn't close to her mother and clearly says the baby would fill a void in her life. She made a choice that was right for her. You can't seriously believe that every case is going to be like this.