Trump expected to sign EO targeting refugees on Wednesday (user search)
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  Trump expected to sign EO targeting refugees on Wednesday (search mode)
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Author Topic: Trump expected to sign EO targeting refugees on Wednesday  (Read 7795 times)
TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,987
Canada
« on: January 26, 2017, 12:54:39 AM »
« edited: January 26, 2017, 12:59:48 AM by TheDeadFlagBlues »

Excellent idea. Don't be like Europe. Stop Muslim immigration.

Just a shame it's on the basis of country instead of religion. Political correctness gone wild, sad!

You're embracing the same ideological tendency that left Jews to die in the Holocaust and that will, most assuredly, lead to similar atrocities in the Middle East going forward. Many gay people will die in the Middle East because of this Executive Order, including a language instructor at a university I went to. He applied for asylum this fall and came out to his family in Iraq. Now he's going to go home to die.

This isn't even about "having a heart" per se. You have to acknowledge that there are disturbing consequences when you try to regulate the flow of people in this manner. It's unnatural, it generalizes with a broad-brush etc. No one should cheer something like this. It's something that I can understand tolerating but celebrating an EO like this is disturbing.

How far we have fallen.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,987
Canada
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2017, 01:00:24 AM »
« Edited: January 26, 2017, 01:06:43 AM by TheDeadFlagBlues »


A lot of immigrants aren't going to get deported for doing the same drugs that you do. Somehow they're the criminals and you aren't.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,987
Canada
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2017, 01:27:31 AM »

Excellent idea. Don't be like Europe. Stop Muslim immigration.

Just a shame it's on the basis of country instead of religion. Political correctness gone wild, sad!

You're embracing the same ideological tendency that left Jews to die in the Holocaust.

Tweets didn't do that.

More to the point, it wasn't just negative stereotypes that led to the lack of reaction to the wholesale slaughter of Jews, Roma, and other groups targeted by the Nazis and their collaborators across Europe. Positive stereotypes also played a role. After all, civilized Germans would never be capable of such barbarity, so those reports of atrocities must be exaggerations and/or lies. That same mindset is what allows Holocaust deniers to get believed by a few despite the abundant evidence to the contrary.

?

I'm saying that if the 1920s wave of anti-immigrant sentiment never occurred that a lot of Jews wouldn't have died in the Holocaust, which is undeniably the case. Liberalized immigration laws would have saved many lives.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,987
Canada
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2017, 12:04:37 PM »

Excellent idea. Don't be like Europe. Stop Muslim immigration.

Just a shame it's on the basis of country instead of religion. Political correctness gone wild, sad!
You're embracing the same ideological tendency that left Jews to die in the Holocaust and that will, most assuredly, lead to similar atrocities in the Middle East going forward. Many gay people will die in the Middle East because of this Executive Order, including a language instructor at a university I went to. He applied for asylum this fall and came out to his family in Iraq. Now he's going to go home to die.

This isn't even about "having a heart" per se. You have to acknowledge that there are disturbing consequences when you try to regulate the flow of people in this manner. It's unnatural, it generalizes with a broad-brush etc. No one should cheer something like this. It's something that I can understand tolerating but celebrating an EO like this is disturbing.

How far we have fallen.
The situation of Jews before the Shoah in Europe and that of Muslims in the Middle East right now is uncomparable because Jews' behavior in Europe was different than Muslims' behavior in the West right now (I don't recall a Jewish 9/11). In addition to that, European antisemtism is a problem not caused by Jews whereas the ongoing stream of intra-Ummah violence is a problem endogeneous to the Muslim world; why should the West bear the negative consequences?

Note that since I'm not historically illiterate, I'm not talking about "not integrating" or whatever; that's just fine by me. Ostjuden in Berlin didn't exactly assimilate either. I don't mind Muslims dressing differently, praying differently, thinking differently, or eating differently, and I would be a massive hypocrite if I did. What I mind is too many Muslims expecting non-Muslims to conform to their rules, committing acts of terrorism because of their religion, and blaming everything on the West while living conditions for a Muslim in the West are infinitely better than for a Muslim in the Middle East. Violent crimes by Muslim youth cannot solely be understood through socio-economic disparities or whatever: they are rooted in a culture that fundamentally disrepects non-Muslims and views taking over non-Muslim areas through intimidation and street terror as legitimate. Moreover, many Muslims' tendency to act on their disapproval of Jews and LGBT people and on women's freedom poses a big problem and is perhaps inevitable. It is that type of behavior I loathe, and we've got a big problem on our hands here in Europe.

LGBT people are a group that should absolutely be part of an exception to the rule and if this executive order would not include such an exception, that would be an aspect I most definitely do not support.

One of the ironies is that any thinking person who is actually concerned about the deeply reactionary tendencies of political Islamism and who does not use that term as coded language for "brown people that I dislike" would recognize that the greatest victims of this tendency are those who are nominally Muslim (closeted gay people, aspiring professional women, artists etc.). The only way to provide safe harbor for them is to accept refugees who are Muslim. This quandary is probably unresolvable for those who are sincere about fearing Islam rather than fearing Muslims.

This is why earlier I referred to the Holocaust, though the Pogroms in Russia would be a much better comparison. Yes, various dissidents are not religious/ethnic minorities but they do face the prospects of political oppression, discrimination and so on. Atrocities will be committed against them. The West's refusal to stand up for its own values in these cases is despicable and betrays the real reasons for these restrictions.

I'd add that screening based on religion wouldn't work. You wouldn't want to force potential refugees to declare themselves as non-Muslim when they're living in the Middle East. That could be a death sentence.

Just some things to keep in mind, I guess. People are free to support these measures but they ought to acknowledge the collateral damage when doing so. Is that actually congruent with the values held by Europeans/Americans?
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