Obama government will stop defending the DOMA

[tpfkaw]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

lol.. I love it when the far right claims every centrist Democrat is "zomgz teh most liberalist ever in the whole wide world!@!"

The type of person I consider a liberal is former governor Floyd B. Olson (Farmer-Labor Party-MN)

Who said this, regarding the conservatives in the state legislature:

"I am making a last appeal to the Legislature. If the Senate does not make provision for the sufferers in the State and the Federal Government refuses to aid, I shall invoke the powers I hold and shall declare martial law. ... A lot of people who are now fighting [relief] measures because they happen to possess considerable wealth will be brought in by provost guard and be obliged to give up more than they would now. There is not going to be misery in this State if I can humanly prevent it. . . Unless the Federal and State governments act to insure against recurrence of the present situation, I hope the present system of government goes right down to hell."

I like it when "liberals" admit to being fascists, it makes things much easier.  Luckily, among your merry band of "liberals," only Castro, Chavez, and Chavez's Bolivian friend remain as of this week.  One presumably down, 3 to go.

[tpfkaw]

I wonder if certain liberals here still think Obama is not liberal enough?

Lol. Obama is barely liberal. I don't understand how you could realistically define him as anything other than a charismatic centrist.

*FACEPALM*

You have a strange definition of centrism. Obama is perhaps the most liberal president we've ever had. I don't know how that could be considered centrist, not even from a far-leftist perspective.

lol.. I love it when the far right claims every centrist Democrat is "zomgz teh most liberalist ever in the whole wide world!@!"

The type of person I consider a liberal is former governor Floyd B. Olson (Farmer-Labor Party-MN)

Who said this, regarding the conservatives in the state legislature:

"I am making a last appeal to the Legislature. If the Senate does not make provision for the sufferers in the State and the Federal Government refuses to aid, I shall invoke the powers I hold and shall declare martial law. ... A lot of people who are now fighting [relief] measures because they happen to possess considerable wealth will be brought in by provost guard and be obliged to give up more than they would now. There is not going to be misery in this State if I can humanly prevent it. . . Unless the Federal and State governments act to insure against recurrence of the present situation, I hope the present system of government goes right down to hell."

I like it when "liberals" admit to being fascists, it makes things much easier.  Luckily, among your merry band of "liberals," only Castro, Chavez, and Chavez's Bolivian friend remain as of this week.  One presumably down, 3 to go.

I'm glad you used the " " since there is nothing genuinely liberal about any of those three people...

I'm the only "genuine liberal" on this page, but the scare quotes were because that appears to be Snowguy's definition of "liberal."

[tpfkaw]

Please don't fancy yourself by pretending you're a "genuine liberal"... try "genuine bald faced liar" in that case.

That's almost as clever as the time I was called "poopyface."

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"Classical" liberalism, simply put, is the desire for a smaller government that respects individual rights.  No classical liberal argues for a larger government or decreased rights.  Beyond that, the continuum can exist among anyone who satisfies those criteria.  That includes all manner of people, whether they accept or reject the idea of the monopoly of force.  It's really freakish how a "true liberal" nowadays is an outright fascist.  The square has been circled, war is peace, freedom is slavery.

[tpfkaw]

You and I seem to be using different definitions of the term "classical liberal" - you are referring to the Federalist-Whig-Republican tradition in the US while I am referring to the "Democrat" tradition; Your group is what I would call "republican nationalists" or "Hobbesian republicans" who believed that government ought to be run "for the benefit of the people," while those whom I would describe as "classical liberals" (and who would have described themselves as such at the time) considered government to be an evil in itself.

[tpfkaw]

You and I seem to be using different definitions of the term "classical liberal" - you are referring to the Federalist-Whig-Republican tradition in the US while I am referring to the "Democrat" tradition; Your group is what I would call "republican nationalists" or "Hobbesian republicans" who believed that government ought to be run "for the benefit of the people," while those whom I would describe as "classical liberals" (and who would have described themselves as such at the time) considered government to be an evil in itself.

Even Locke didn't consider the government to be an 'evil'.

Locke is overrated.  Anyways, he was a far-right militia hate group leader:

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Exactly... classical liberals believed in 'limited government' - but the it's the NEO-classicals who are angling more towards your idea of smallest level of government possible...

But yes, I would love to see ANY quote from a recognised early liberal thinker who considers government to be an evil?

You're an idiot:

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He passed Bob Dole's healthcare bill. I guess Bob Dole is also a hardcore socialist too now?

Yep.

[tpfkaw]

...and you seem to lack basic manners.

Well, when I make a reference to what's possibly the most famous quote in the classical liberal tradition (to the point that it is referenced in glib 5th-grade textbook paragraphs and could well be used as the clue to "What is Classical Liberalism?" on Jeopardy), and you make a ridiculous, obviously and laughably untrue statement, I think I can call you out on it.

[tpfkaw]

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Paine isn’t the best guy to be quoting for your case either, what with his support for guaranteed minimum income, estate taxes, and welfare for seniors, among other things. (see Agrarian Justice)

A-HA!  The person you just cited disagrees with you on like 3 issues!  Therefore you are all wrong!  (You may note that nowhere does my argument require that Paine or anyone else be a perfect anarcho-capitalist...)

[tpfkaw]

I'll call your out-of-context vague Paine quote, and raise you an extremely specific one:

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(ftr: adjusted for inflation, 15 pounds would be just under $2000; 10 pounds is right at $1300.)

One wonders how many of today's "liberals" (or today's "conservatives" for that matter) would consent to having the present welfare state replaced with Paine's.