France: Roma's hunting is opened

[GMantis]

I hope that now France will stop lecturing Bulgaria and Romania how to deal with their Gypsies.

But, the Romas are highly discriminated in Romania, then they go in other European countries, like France, in which they can make more money than in Romania by not declared jobs. If more of that they are given 300€ and a plane ticket to go back in Romania each time they come, why wouldn't they come back.

In Bulgaria, Gypsies are a privileged minority and I doubt it's any different in Romania.

[GMantis]

I hope that now France will stop lecturing Bulgaria and Romania how to deal with their Gypsies.

But, the Romas are highly discriminated in Romania, then they go in other European countries, like France, in which they can make more money than in Romania by not declared jobs. If more of that they are given 300€ and a plane ticket to go back in Romania each time they come, why wouldn't they come back.

In Bulgaria, Gypsies are a privileged minority and I doubt it's any different in Romania.

Well, can't say much for Bulgaria, since the focus has always been on Romania here, from which come by far the biggest majority of Romas who immigrate, but, unless we've been victim of a massive media conspiracy for years now, Romas in Romania, are far to be a privileged minority, to say the least. Hope you're sincere about Bulgaria.

Well, they don't have to pay for public amenities, they can build their shacks wherever they want, they are targets of multiple integration programs, their children receive free food so they can stay at school and there are dozens of NGOV whose only purpose is to defend their rights.
As I said above, I don't know that much about the situation in Bulgaria. Then again, if you adjust for education level and the number of Gypsies who actually apply for work, I'm rather doubtful that you would find much evidence of discrimination even in Romania.

I hope that now France will stop lecturing Bulgaria and Romania how to deal with their Gypsies.

But, the Romas are highly discriminated in Romania, then they go in other European countries, like France, in which they can make more money than in Romania by not declared jobs. If more of that they are given 300€ and a plane ticket to go back in Romania each time they come, why wouldn't they come back.

In Bulgaria, Gypsies are a privileged minority and I doubt it's any different in Romania.

About the 'lecturing' point, since France, and Europe iirc, gave some money, one more time especially to Romania, to help Romas to have a better integration in their country, well, maybe they can say a few words. Especially when you have concrete examples which show how poorly this help is managed. A guy in charge of these questions in an organizations which deal with Romas speak about the famous example of this couple of Romas who received an help to breed sheep...while they were living in a flat of Bucarest. And since people go in other countries because fleeing massive discrimination, maybe the destination countries can say a few words too.

I don't really trust those kind of organizations because it's very convenient for them to make victims out of the gypsies. I've heard of many examples of Gypsies in my country being offered appropriate work by these programs and refusing to take it, so you can't exactly blame Romania and Bulgaria for this.
I meant with my remarks about the lecturing by France that France and other Western European countries are always accusing Romania and Bulgaria of discriminating the Gypsies and not integrating them, but at the first sign of trouble - and such kind of things happen very frequently here - France simply sends them back, instead of trying to integrate them. This is rank hypocrisy, at least in my opinion.
I use Gypsies for the ethnic group as whole, mainly because I don't like the racist PC term Roma. Why are they gypsies so special that everybody should call them by their endonym?

[GMantis]

A nation must... control who comes into it.

Not really.  It isn't going to effect the French nation much whether there are a few hundreds more or less poor shuffling about, washing the toilets and begging.  Even if they're pickpocketing, again 'controlling' this is not a 'must' for a nuclear armed violent state with nearly 60 million subjects.

By the way, deadman, what's with the defense of this blatantly racist policy?

France hardly needs any more unintegratable minorities with a high birth rate.
By the way, what's this myth about Gypsies committing petty crimes? In fact, they also disproportionaly involved in serious crimes as well.

[GMantis]

France hardly needs any more unintegratable minorities with a high birth rate.
By the way, what's this myth about Gypsies committing petty crimes? In fact, they also disproportionaly involved in serious crimes as well.

You are a racist.  Are you French?

Nice to see that you have run out of arguments. And no.

[GMantis]

Well, they don't have to pay for public amenities, they can build their shacks wherever they want, they are targets of multiple integration programs, their children receive free food so they can stay at school and there are dozens of NGOV whose only purpose is to defend their rights.
As I said above, I don't know that much about the situation in Bulgaria. Then again, if you adjust for education level and the number of Gypsies who actually apply for work, I'm rather doubtful that you would find much evidence of discrimination even in Romania.

Well, discrimination is simple to me, people don't let them work, and they are confined in ghettos, and unless we have been victim of a massive conspiracy during years from all kinds of media, this is not a fairy tale. One more time, I can mainly speak about Romania, but reports use to say that it wouldn't be much different in Bulgaria.

Please, don't spread nonsense here. Of courses gypsies can work (most street cleaners here are gypsies), however both their level of education and their insistence on getting work are much lower than the general population, so the huge unemployment rates are not surprising. Nor are they confined to ghettos. They can live anywhere they want  - can you imagine the outcry if it wasn't so? Problem is that they can't really afford to live in better areas. Also many of the neighborhoods where they were settled in social housing were abandoned by most non-gypsies and were ghettoized, so to speak.

I don't really trust those kind of organizations because it's very convenient for them to make victims out of the gypsies. I've heard of many examples of Gypsies in my country being offered appropriate work by these programs and refusing to take it, so you can't exactly blame Romania and Bulgaria for this.

Well, the organizations I refer too are constructive ones, not those of the kind of which, yeah, the main work would be to make victims and to say how awful it is. No, I don't take sources from those. And my job isn't to make poor victims out of Romas as well, I don't doubt some would play with money given for help, they remain humans, but here I spoke of how money is used and distributed by administrations.

Outside of the fact that Romania and Bulgaria haven't shown the best proofs that corruption was out of question there, at least according to international surveys, it seems that a better control of the money given to them for integration should appear, in order to avoid waste and abuse. And this not only from Romanian and Bulgarian administrations, from France too. Outside of the 300€ they give to those who accept to be sent back in their the country, France affords 3,600€ to Romas they send back there who have a project and who present it, in order they integrate themselves there. Everybody should be more careful with money there.

Of course Bulgaria and Romania should be more careful with the money which they are given by the EU. Even so, a lot of money has been spent (and not only EU money)  and special programs implemented, so you can't exactly claim that Balkan countries are not trying.
And it's probable that many of those NGOV are trying to help the gypsies, but I don't think they are really helping the gypsies by telling them that all they problems due to discrimination, which they clearly are not. And yes, many NGOV seem to do exactly that.

I meant with my remarks about the lecturing by France that France and other Western European countries are always accusing Romania and Bulgaria of discriminating the Gypsies and not integrating them, but at the first sign of trouble - and such kind of things happen very frequently here - France simply sends them back, instead of trying to integrate them. This is rank hypocrisy, at least in my opinion.

Well, sorry but that are citizens of those countries, which they flee and come here, since we receive them because they meet troubles there (one more time most reports would say it for years now, and they don't flee their country by random, they are not nomads, they settle when they find something better for them), I see it as normal that we tell a bunch of words to the countries of origin, and the fact that we could send them back there would be normal too technically, since they are not citizens of this country.

But in this thread I'm speaking of the fact that what remains a very tiny minority here (less than 20,000 Romas) suddenly became a national target, using it as one of other securitarist measures in order to hide home political weakness, boasting xenophobic sentiments. That's my concern here, but technically the fact that a country of origin would have to make more efforts to integrate its citizens than the country in which those immigrate shouldn't be that shocking.

Anyhow, as I said, luckily the Shengen area will give same rights to everybody here, which is what I prefer.

Isn't this actually the point of the EU - to remove the old limits imposed by national borders? So obviously even those grandstanding Western European countries seem to think that they can't integrate gypsies.
By the way, another word on hypocrisy. When gypsies squat illegally on the outskirts of major cities and are then removed and returned to their former settlements, the whole EU is in arms about their human rights. But obviously such things are not so important in France...
And even small numbers of Romanian gypsies have managed to greatly worsen the opinion of Romania in Italy, so I wouldn't dismiss 20000 of them. Not to mention that they won't remain so few for long.

I use Gypsies for the ethnic group as whole, mainly because I don't like the racist PC term Roma. Why are they gypsies so special that everybody should call them by their endonym?

So, I don't know the subtleties in Bulgarian and English languages, but in French Gypsies is the translation of 'Gitans', and this is not the generic term, this, as I said before refers to people who adopted a Southern European culture, who remained nomads for a big part of them in France, and who for a part of them have French citizenship.

Romas, became a single community descending from the global nomad ones which came from India in the Middle-Age, not sure what would be the generic term of the global community, maybe 'Tziganes' in French but I'm not sure. What I'm sure is that Gypsies and Romas are words which refers to 2 different communities here, and the govt indeed enjoyed mixing everything after what happened in the middle of July which involved Gypsies, then not Romanian citizens. Romas clearly refer to the descendants from this Indian people who settled in Romania, and who know are not nomads anymore, they only travel to settle somewhere. I can't say whether it would be a PC invention, but that's how it is today.

I'm using the word gypsy as a translation of the Bulgarian term цигани, as in both languages it signifies of the ethnic group as a whole.
You're wrong about this. Roma is the Gypsy word for human (see here so it's usage to refer to the ethnic group is obviously racist. And it's PC, because it has been introduced in everyday language in order to conceal the negatives associated with Gypsy. Also, I suspect that some unconscious and utterly wrong association with the Romans was sought. It's not surprising that in Romanian the word is written with two r.

France hardly needs any more unintegratable minorities with a high birth rate.
By the way, what's this myth about Gypsies committing petty crimes? In fact, they also disproportionaly involved in serious crimes as well.

Hmm, please, if as you say you're not French don't invent what's going on here. As I said they are less than 20,000 people here, for, as reminded opebo a country of about 60 millions people (about 65 according to last census). So, I don't really see a threat here, in case foreign cultures can be seen as a threat, but that's an other debate.

Oh, and please, be sure that they are not very well seen here, thus the govt playing on this, but actually, most of those remain in petty crimes and begging according to reports, yes. Of course some can be involved in bigger things, yes, but that would be far to be the majority, and even less than in other discriminated groups here I'd say.

As I said above Gypsies will tend to grow rather quickly - both due to the birth rate and to easy immigration within the EU. Of course, they are not a major threat, but to use a perhaps unfortunate analogy, if half your house is on fire, it's not a good idea to also try to set small fires in the other half. And even a small minority can create serious problems, as can been seen here.
In countries, where gypsies are present in significant numbers they do commit serious crimes like murder and rape far above their numbers. As there are no official statistics on crime and ethnicity in Eastern European countries, that's not officially reports as well, but it's very well known.

 

[GMantis]

On the other hand, I wonder about Flemish, generally, toward Wallons, if that's not hatred that could be a big hint of that...

It isn't. In general what we have going on round here are just some 'ordinary' political problems which are not driven by racial tensions. If there is electoral gain to be found in nationalism, that finds its origin in the media and mainstream parties blaming the 'unworkable' structure of the Belgian state. Racial hatred plays no role whatsoever in the Flemish Mainstream.


Hungarians hating the Roma is very much a fact. And unless my memory is  way off, they aren't particulary well liked in Romania either.

The Gypsies are hated in every single Eastern European country with a significant population of them.