ECB calls for European countries to 'give up sovereignty'

[Yelnoc]

What are they going to propose next, the Fourth Reich or something?

Er, yeah, that's pretty much what's being proposed here. Though honestly if you ignore the imperialism, authoritarianism, genocide, nationalism and military aggression, the German reichs weren't so bad at all. And this new one should be devoid of all of the above.

The First Reich was not any of those

[Yelnoc]

What are they going to propose next, the Fourth Reich or something?

Er, yeah, that's pretty much what's being proposed here. Though honestly if you ignore the imperialism, authoritarianism, genocide, nationalism and military aggression, the German reichs weren't so bad at all. And this new one should be devoid of all of the above.

The First Reich was not any of those

You Fail History Forever.

First Reich = Holy Roman Empire

Imperialism.  The concept did not exist for most of the HRE's existence.  By that time, it was an utterly disjointed mess.

Authoritarianism.  "The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire."  The HRE is a poster child for decentralization.  Sure, some princes and archbishops and what have you could be characterized as authoritarian, but let's not paint with broad brushes here.

Genocide.  No.

Nationalism.  Concept did not exist.  Nation did not exist.

Military Aggression.  This is specific to the time period.  For the majority of the HRE's history, however, the emperor was not the aggressor.

[Yelnoc]

First Reich = Holy Roman Empire

I know that, but thanks.

I wasn't sure I was speaking with a historically literate person

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Is there only a single concept of imperialism, now? And must concepts only be used to describe things that happened after the concept was created? Of course after a certain point the Holy Roman Empire only existed as a bizarre technicality, but during its earlier centuries...

This is, of course, one of the things I was getting at. The other would be the one at the end of your list.[/quote]

Well, how do you define imperialism?  When I think of Imperialism, I think of one state dominating another.  That brings to mind the colonial empires of Britain, France, et al, which the Holy Roman Empire was never able to emulate.  Obviously imperialism should not be constrained to colonial empires, but I do not see a consistent pattern of imperial behavior on the part of the First Reich over its history.

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I like that 'could' there. Amusing.[/quote]

Yeah, ok, most of the duchies and what not were authoritarian, but then what medieval European state wasn't?

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Oh, now this is a deeply controversial area. Especially in the context of German history, for obvious reasons.[/quote]

Right you are there.  But, I don't think you can argue that nationalism drove the policies of the Holy Roman Empire.

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Everything is specific to a time period. In the case of the Holy Roman Empire, that 'time period' to which you refer can, I think, be quite confidently measured in terms of centuries.[/quote]

I think this is debatable.  I admit I do not know much about the early history of the HRE, but more often then not throughout its later history, the HRE was the battle ground of neighboring powers.  The 30 Years War and Napoleonic Wars come to mind.

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I have to echo this; the hyperbole is very annoying.

[Yelnoc]

I wasn't sure I was speaking with a historically literate person

It pays the rent, so I like to think that I am.

Really?  What's your field of study?

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No, not in the same way. But you did have the expansions eastwards and also into Italy. You could also link in some of the Crusades in some way, I suppose. Of course you might wonder how much some of that had to do with the state that had that name, but certainly what happened in Bohemia during the Hussite Wars would count as foreign domination and so on, even if there was a massive religious subtext (or was it the other way round?). Won't go on about this in much more detail, because I'm not a Medievalist.[/quote]

I would put the crusades in their own category, because of the heavy church influence and also because they tended to establish states independent of the backer(s).  But I'm not a medievalist either.

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Yeah, but the objection was entirely focused on the earlier periods.[/quote]

We could probably argue about this for pages.  Safe to say, I don't think we can really talk about the HRE without breaking its history into multiple periods.  And that kind of guts broad descriptors like "First Reich."