Why Won't Bobby Casey Debate Santorum?

[Wakie]

Gee ... let's think about this.  Why won't someone with a double digit lead debate?  Hmm ... let's think for about 5 seconds.  Umm ... because doing so would be ridiculous!  It is simple political calculus.  Any campaign manager who would advise his candidate to risk a double digit lead by debating an incumbant with more money isn't worth his salt!

Hey Soulty, have you ever played any of the election simulation games?  Do you risk your lead with a needless debate?

Slick Rick is getting his butt kicked because, quite frankly, he's proven he's an extremist who is out of touch with the values of most PA voters.

[Wakie]

two reasons:

1.  he is a rockhead
2.  his ideas are mostly stupid

Would you like a nice piave or gouda with that?

[Wakie]

This boils down to the Casey camp ducking a shot to have the voters acctually compare and contrast the beliefs of the two candidates.

Yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with smart campaigning, right?

If voters want to a contrast the candidates they can do so, they don't need a debate.

[Wakie]

So... answer my question "Progress"... how many children have you lost?

Ok Soulty, so answer my question ... would you advise a candidate with a double digit lead to risk a debate?

[Wakie]

So... answer my question "Progress"... how many children have you lost?

Ok Soulty, so answer my question ... would you advise a candidate with a double digit lead to risk a debate?

If I were the candidate, I would never hesitate to debate any opponent who had better than 10%

If you were the campaign manager for a candidate w/ a double digit lead would you advise them to debate their opponent?

[Wakie]

If I were the candidate and my campaign manager told me not to debate, I would tell them to shut up.  A real leader doesn't want to be "handled" and that is exactly the point.

Well that is a bit of a dodging the question, isn't it?  Unlike a Presidential debate, Senatorial debates are not as widely seen.  There is no great outcry for a debate (except from the Santorum campaign).  It would honestly be foolhardy for Casey to risk his lead.

Also, do you truly believe the measure of a leader is how well they do in a debate?  If that's the case then how the heck can you possibly support Bush?  The man has the debating skill of a drunken cowboy.

[Wakie]

If I were the candidate and my campaign manager told me not to debate, I would tell them to shut up.  A real leader doesn't want to be "handled" and that is exactly the point.

Well that is a bit of a dodging the question, isn't it?  Unlike a Presidential debate, Senatorial debates are not as widely seen.  There is no great outcry for a debate (except from the Santorum campaign).  It would honestly be foolhardy for Casey to risk his lead.

Also, do you truly believe the measure of a leader is how well they do in a debate?  If that's the case then how the heck can you possibly support Bush?  The man has the debating skill of a drunken cowboy.

No, it isn't.  That is my answer to your question.  You just don't like my answer.

No, an answer would be "yes I would always advise my candidate to debate" or "no, I wouldn't risk the lead".  Would you tell Bob Dole to debate Mario Cuomo?

You're clearly a fervent Santorum supporter.  Instead of whining about the fact that Casey is running a good campaign, maybe you should ask yourself why there is so little support for Santorum.  The answer is simple.  Santorum has proven he's an extremist.  PA doesn't like extremists.  We like moderates.  John Heinz, Bob Casey, Arlen Specter .... these are the type of politicians PA elects.  Santorum is closer to the values of Alabama or Utah.

[Wakie]

Well Soulty, I don't think you've got a very long career in politics then.  Casey and Santorum are scheduled for 1 debate (before Labor Day).  The Santorum people will whine and cry that this isn't enough.

[Wakie]

Well Soulty, I don't think you've got a very long career in politics then.  

Well, good.  I would rather go down in a blaze of glory doing the right thing than be President of the World simply because I lied, cheated, stole and pussed my way out, to the top.

And another thing... your question is totally irrelivant for the reason you obviously couldn't figure out, which is that I would never be manger to, nor would I ever be the candidate who was so wanting of a spine that he could be bent with a pair of tweasers.

Well then how do you support Rick Santorum?

In '94 his people refused to debate Wofford more than once.  Funny that you (and his people) are critical of Casey for doing the same.

When he first came into Congress Santorum was part of the famous "Gang of 7" who were so critical Congressional perks from lobbyists.  But now he's under investigation for receiving some of these same perks from his work with Jack Abramoff.

In 1990 he attacked Doug Walgren for maintaining a residence in Washington (arguing he was out of touch w/ voters) while Congress was in session.  But now that he does the same thing (not even maintaining a mailing address in PA) it is ok.  Yeah, that's not hypocrisy.

Tricky Ricky flip flops on issues.  In a 2002 Washington Times op-ed article Santorum wrote that intelligent design "is a legitimate scientific theory that should be taught in science classes."  But during an interview with National Public Radio in 2005, Santorum stated "I'm not comfortable with intelligent design being taught in the science classroom."

[Wakie]

Soulty, your bias is so ridiculously blatant.  Seriously man, you've gone to blind partisianship.


DEBATES
You started this thread complaining that Casey "won't debate".  But the reality is that there is a debate scheduled for right before Labor Day.  Personally I think this is an unnecessary risk by the Casey camp, but hey, I'm not the one calling the shots.  Is it just that you feel one debate isn't enough?  If so then why didn't Santorum and Wofford debate more than once?


RESIDENCY ISSUES
You defend Santorum's residency hypocrisy by saying the difference is Senate vs House and Now vs Then.  That is totally ridiculous.

Number 1, PA is literally a 2 hr drive from DC.  Joe Biden commutes every day from Delaware on the train.  Pittsburgh is 4 hrs from Leesburg, VA.  I'm not saying Santorum should be in PA every night, but he could certainly spend a little time there when Congress is out (and not just on election years).

Number 2, Senators should be just as receptive to their states as House members should be to their districts.  If Santorum didn't feel he was up to the task then he shouldn't have run for office.

Number 3, 1990 was not the dark ages.  It was possible to get newspapers from out of state.  It was possible to do conference calls.  It was possible to hear voters concerns.

Number 4, it is HIGHLY hypocritical for Santorum to make a plank of his first campaign an attack on a politician for maintaining a residence in Washington while Congress is in session AND THEN for him (Santorum) to literally move to Washington full time!

Number 5, don't give me this BS about Santorum having a "large family".  That was a decision he and his wife made.  If it prevents him from doing his job then he either (A) shouldn't have had so many kids or (B) shouldn't have pursued a career inconsistent with his family plans.  Aren't Republicans usually the ones who argue that a poor person with many kids is personally at fault?  Well, a Senator with many kids is ALSO personally at fault.


ABRAMOFF-SANTORUM TIES
The relationship between Jack Abramoff and the Republican leadership is very well documented.  But only a few members of Congress have been identified as having been close enough to him to have actually been aware of his illicit dealings.  Tricky Ricky has been named as one of those.  Quite ironic considering the rhetoric from his early days in Washington.


FLIP-FLOPS
I think this is hilarious.  During the Presidential campaign Republicans refused to accept that Kerry could change his mind on an issue.  But right now that is your excuse for Santorum???  Come on.


BRING A CORPSE HOME
I love the defense of this action.  If you want to argue if this is ok or not that is up to you, but this IS what he did.  His wife wrote about it in her book.  They brought a corpse home and introduced it to their children.  Then they slept with it in the home.  At best this is pretty darn gruesome and well beyond normal behavior.


WHINING ABOUT TOUGH CAMPAIGNING
I love hearing the complaints about Casey running a tough campaign.  Isn't that what GW Bush has done in 2000 and 2004??  You guys were ok with him attacking his opponents through proxy, why is it wrong in a Senate race?  Also, wasn't it Rick Santorum who defended his attacks on Ron Klink by saying "politics in this state is a contact sport"?


Hold both sides to the same standards Soulty.  Enough blind partisanship.  Casey is a moderate, pro-life Dem.  Santorum is an extremist and mildly insane.

[Wakie]

It was because they couldn't agree on debate rules.  Anyway....

Uh huh ... sure ... right ... yep.

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1- Is it shocking you have close ties to the Santorum campaign?  Not at all.  This explaining the extreme partisanship.

2- Is it shocking that Santorum's campaign chairman has seen him?  Not at all.  It is totally ridiculous that you seem to think having a campaign chairman see a candidate in an election year means that the candidate is "in touch".

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Read the Federalist Papers.
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If you feel Senators shouldn't listen to their constituents then this might explain your support of Santorum.

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I'm simply saying that all this stuff is far easier now.
[/quote]

It is also easier and safer to travel now than it was 16 years ago.

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BS.  This isn't about job responsibilities.  This is about travel time.  The travel time is the same.

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This is just flat out too stupid to deserve a serious response.
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No, it is just that your argument that Santorum has a big family was idiotic.

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I'm not even going to bother to quote your response because it amounts to "you have some guys who are worse".  Yeah, that's the standard by which we should evaluate Senators ... just don't be the worst one.

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There's a big difference between doing what Santorum did and Kerry did.  Santorum totally changed his tune on an issue.  Kerry voted against a bill because he felt it needed to be reworked (there were too many non-defense pork barrell spending things tied to the bill).

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You and everyone else can shut the f**k up about this.  The guy lost his new born baby.  And instead of throwing it in a dumpser, they had an emotional attachment to it and decided not to totally disregard it.  I know that liberals can't imagine having an emotional attachment to a baby, since they are barely human, anyway, and not human, certainly, before they cross that arbeitrary threshhold of being out of the womb... but some people, you know, acctually care about their kids, and some people get emotionally distressed when a baby dies, and back in the day (about 50 years ago, not even 100) practices like this were not in the least bit uncommon, esspecially among Catholics.
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1- I'm a Catholic.  Have been my entire life.  Father is Polish, mother is part Irish.  Grew up part of my life in Bloomfield (the major Italian neighborhood of Pittsburgh).  I have NEVER heard of someone bringing a corpse home for the night.  I've been to more than a few wakes in my life.  The body is always left in the funeral home.

2- When did I, or anyone, suggest a dumpster?  Never.  All we're saying is that bringing a corpse home for the night is, at best, creepy and weird.

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Sorry, I've been to many Casey events and I've never heard him mention his father.  He doesn't have to because the Republicans are reminding everyone who his father is when they whine about it.

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He most certainly DID run as GHW's kid in 2000.  Otherwise what was he known for being?  2 term Gov of Texas?  A state with a weak executive branch?  Owner of a baseball team?  No, he was only a candidate for President because of his last name.

And if you want to talk about letting someone else fighting dirty, how about his people's attacks on McCain's family?  Or the BS Swift Boat group?  All the while Bush pretended he was 'above it all'.

Casey is running an excellent campaign.  He's a moderate who offers a vision consistent with the values of PA voters.  Is it surprising he's kicking Santorum's butt?

[Wakie]

I didn't just knee jerk into it, the way that you and your rabid partisan friends are knee jerk attacking Santorum on any straw that you can grasp at.

I've had 12 years of Santorum to decide he doesn't represent my views as a PA voter.  I also believe he doesn't represent most PA voters.  If I really wanted to attack EVERY thing about Santorum we'd be talking about his defense of steroid usage.

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Such a pleasant and intellectual response from the Santorum camp.  Come on, lets keep it civil.  The name calling is silly and fails to promote any rational dialogue.

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I would like the entire government to act in the best interest of the people ... all the people.  But that isn't how it happens.  Senators are given more responsibilities than members of the House but they are not EXCLUDED from their responsibilities as representatives of their respective states.

The fact remains, Santorum criticized Walgren for maintaining a 2nd home.  But now he refuses to hold himself to the same standard to which he held Walgren.  You argue that increased responsibilities excuse him.  I disagree.  Either you are capable of doing your job or you're not.  In life you make decisions and trade offs.  If Santorum didn't feel he was up to the task of being a Senator he shouldn't have run for office.

[Wakie]

Way to attack without sounding as though you were doing it.  A slightly less intellegent person might not have been able to pick up on that.  Slighly less intellegent than a dog, that is.

If you want I can rattle off a long list of complaints I have with Santorum.  I'm sure though you would defend him at every turn though.  Quite ironic considering that earlier in this thread you insisted that you were turned off by Santorum.

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LOL, as opposed to the laundry list of issues which I have brought up in this thread which you have conveniently avoided.  Ok, lets talk about it.  The issue was your reliance on the testimony of one person to establish your view that Santorum spends "a lot of time" in PA.  Never mind that this individual is now the Santorum campaign chair (and not at all likely to be biased).

Your own comments show how out of touch Santorum is.  Your friend must have gone to EVERY Santorum event to make such an impression as to become campaign chair.  Either that or they weren't very well attended or there were a limited number of them.

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Amazing.  Only a ridiculous partisan could claim that a politician is actually doing a better job by "being less engaged".  I doubt very many people would agree with you on this view.