Impact of Russian attack on Georgia on American Presidential election

[CARLHAYDEN]

It will take a number of days for average Americans to become really aware of the naked agresion of Russian forces in Georgia, and even more to comprehend that this is NOT an isolated action, but rather the opening act on a drama authored by Vlad Putin to reconstitute a Russian empire, with himself as emperor (in fact, if not in name).

So, how will the next American President react to the continuing agression?

Well, its pretty clear that Obama will wring his hands and punish the American people, but do nothing to stop much less deter the Russians from their course of agression.

Its not clear how effectual that a President McCain would be, but, it is clear that he would act to try to stop and deter Russian agression.

This highlights Obama's inadequacy as commander in chief.

If the conflict expands, its likely to doom Obama's Presidential quest unless he takes a page out of John F. Kennedy's book (re: 1960).

[CARLHAYDEN]

the opening act on a drama authored by Vlad Putin to reconstitute a Russian empire, with himself as emperor (in fact, if not in name).

he's gonna have a pretty tough time doing that given that NATO seems to be surrounding him to the west

Not really.

First, Russia will absorb Byelorussia.  No problem from NATO.

Then, they'll take back the 'stans.  Again, no real opposition from NATO.

Then, it will turn out that the baltic republics will somehow "provoke" the Russians, which will force the Russians to attack and aborb the baltic republics.

Question is, will a President Obama have the cojones to oppose Russia seeking to recover Alaska?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Calm down Carl. There is no need to get so overwrought. Russia had trouble subduing Afghanistan remember?

I know a lot more about Afghanistan than I want to remember!

The various 'stans are former soviet territority, where a signficant number of Russian nationals were intentionally settled.

Also, unlike Afghanistan, the Russians put in place basic transportation systems in the stans.

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

[CARLHAYDEN]

Oh, and tell Xahar to study a little history (his ignorance is massive).

lol

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

I agree that you are ignorant about many things.

I must disagree with you when you alledge that you are "not ignorant about history."

Also, I have yet to detect any understanding on your part of the lessons of history.

Also, your previous posts would tend to indicate that you are unaware that Alaska was once a Russian possession.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, your previous posts would tend to indicate that you are unaware that Alaska was once a Russian possession.

Until 1867. This is 2008. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Corsica was once Italian. Newfoundland was once a British possession. The Virgin Islands were once Danish.

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Do you understand the status of Kashmir and Jammu, and how long that has been contested?

Oh, and part (not all) of the Virgin Islands were at one time Danish (don't see the danes trying to recover their lost colonies).

Are you really so ignorant that you do not understand the strong pull of Russian imperialism?

Wake up tovarisch, oh, and aside from Vodka, they drink tea in Russia.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Lets see.

How long were the Falklands British possessions, before the Argentines invaded and sought to annex them?

Entirely unrelated. The Argentines had a strong claim, and still have, to the Falklands. Russia doesn't have a strong claim to Alaska.

Do you understand the status of Kashmir and Jammu, and how long that has been contested?

Entirely unrelated again.

Oh, and part (not all) of the Virgin Islands were at one time Danish (don't see the danes trying to recover their lost colonies).

Yes, I know.

Are you really so ignorant that you do not understand the strong pull of Russian imperialism?

Try debating instead of throwing insults around.

Wake up tovarisch, oh, and aside from Vodka, they drink tea in Russia.

lolz

Well, lets see,

You argued that after a certain period of time, nations would give up their pretenstions to areas they had once ruled.

I gave you examples of where that was NOT true.

Apparently you are unable to comprehend my point.

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Finally, I note that you keep dodging the central concept, that the Russians will continue expanding by force until stopped (and you have no desire to stop them until it becomes so late that the effort would need to be extreme).

[CARLHAYDEN]

I am ignorant about a great deal of things. I am not ignorant about history. Certainly not Russian history. Not after all the time I've spent poring over Volkogonov and Khrushchev's memoirs and the transcripts of the show trials of the Great Purge.

You've seriously read those?

Aye. Great reading.
CARL, I now full well what Russian imperialism means. I know what happened at Katyń. I also know that Putin will practice realpolitik. Like him or not, he's certainly very intelligent. You had to be to get ahead in the dog-eat-dog world of Soviet politics. He's learned from Gorbachev's mistakes, and Brezhnev's mistakes, and Khrushchev's mistakes, and Stalin's mistakes. And he doesn't need hard power. He wants soft power. Ukraine 2004 proved that conclusively. He won't attack the United States. That would be stupid, when he can dominate the world economically instead. And there are no irredentist Russians in Alaska. Russia irredenta does not include Alaska. It has been centuries since the bear looked east. If there was a movement, we would've seen it in the last 150 years.

First, the Russians seized the islands of northern Japan after World War II.

Second, the Russo-Japanese war was the result of Russian building railroads and other facilities in Manchuria.

Third, in 1969 the Russians were planning on hitting China's nuclear facilities in Sinkiang.

All of these events have happened in the last hundred years, and there are more.

Now, no one I know of doubts that Putin is intelligent, or thoroughly ruthless. 

He will use whatever force he deems necessary to obtain his objectives.

Do you have any idea of his background?

Finally, you seem to believe there need to be irredentists to cause an attacks.  That is simply false.  All that is needed is for a thug like Putin to believe that he can seize assets he wants with little risk.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

Ah, the shifting storyline,

first it was 150 years (and I provided examples disproving that allegation)

now its "these days"

when the Russians intervene in one of the 'stans, what will your story be then (you really need to think ahead when providing defending aggressors as changing your story, as you have on this thread, makes rational people doubt your allegations).

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, you still have shown NO understanding of the pull of Russian imperialism.  Not simply an insult, but rather an observation of your failure to understand a key concept.

Russian imperialism is concentrated on Europe these days, in case you haven't noticed. It isn't focused much on Alaska.

Ah, the shifting storyline,

first it was 150 years (and I provided examples disproving that allegation)

now its "these days"

when the Russians intervene in one of the 'stans, what will your story be then (you really need to think ahead when providing defending aggressors as changing your story, as you have on this thread, makes rational people doubt your allegations).

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Not in the decade, most likely, but Russia could intervene there.

You really should write for a soap opera.  You story just keeps changing.

I hope you realize the 'stans are in Asia (you now admited that you "wouldn't be suprised" if the Russians intervene there).

Oh, and now the time span is in the "next decade."

Ah, but you do leave a way out with you "most likely."

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl Hayden, though reasonable with domestic social issues, is basically nuke thirst on international issues....and someone is even happy that it is Dubya instead of MickyC in the WH. That's not a good sign. Gee, I though that when I would become a lawyer, I would be able to afford a small plane or boat, now I will be using my disposable income on a fallout shelter.

As usual weasel you either fail to understand my explicitly made point, or are simply misrepresenting.

As I have noted, the United States should supply Georgia with antitank missiles and light SAMs. 

The Russians will back off when they start losing tanks and aircraft.

Do you really believe that any tangible opposition to Russian aggression means nuclear war?

If you have bothered to pay attention, you would note I have been highly critical of GW, whose performance on the invasion of Georgia has been pathetic.

MickyC?!?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Regarding the missile supply issue, Carl Hayden, I wonder if it could be done discretely -  wasn't it done secretly in Afghanistan or through third parties?

I'd support this idea if it could be done without raising too many other problems.

First, no need to hide supplying the missles to Georgia.  The Russians would find out about it anyway, and the knowledge would discourage them from another attack knowing that it would probably fail (embarassing) and significantly deplete their tank/aircraft supply.

Second, the move Charlie Wilson's war was reasonably accurate.

Third, as the Georgians would love to have these resources, and are in pretty good financial situation, they would buy them, improving the U.S. balance of trade.  Indeed, it might well encourage other nations bordering Russia to buy such supplies from us to discourage the Russians from attacking them.

[CARLHAYDEN]

My timeline hasn't changed. I asked you to give an example of Russian aggression against Alaska in the last 150 years. You haven't provided one, have you?

I never denied Russian imperialism. I denied that it would extend to Alaska.

Actually, what you said was (in Post #38 on August 11, 2208, 11:12:02 p.m.) was:

"It has been centuries since the bear looked east.  If there was a movement, we would've seen it in the last 150 years."

You never asked for an example, and I never alledged, that there has yet been Russian agression against Alaska since its acquisition by the United States by purchase/treaty.

However, I did provide several examples of where there had been Russian agression in the east in the past 150 years.

You really should review what was actually said, before making allegations which are not only contrafactual, but simply absurd!  In other words, try to keep your changing story from totally contradicting the established record.