GUN CONTROL!!!

[CARLHAYDEN]

i think the peoblem with the us is that there are just too many bloody guns. Take away law-abiding citizens rights to guns and they're 'undefended' (although I read that more people die from their own guns then kill others in self defence) from the mountains of guns possessed by cruiminals. Australia has the fortunate circumstances of only the big crims having guns, and only using them to shoot eachother. In the US, your gun culture has led to a 'damned if you do, an damned if you don't' set of circumstances; although we only know that the latter is true. I reckon that trying gun control is necessary now, after we've seen that laz gun laws simply don't work and make for a more dangerous society.

Have you te se any evidence of though on your part!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Hugh, you just never cease to make gross factual mistatements (I'm not going to call them 'lies' because there is ample evidence you are incapable of understanding the difference between truth and a lie).

The US and Australia are VERY different in population composition as it relates to violent crime, particularly 'murder and nonnegligent homocide.'

If you look at the proportion of the black population in the two countries, and then look at the number of murders atributed to blacks in the two countries, you will see the number one explanation of the elevated murder rate in the United States relative to Australia.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Dibs-Australia and the USA, are, however, very similar countries culturally, historically, etc. We have similar crime rates, etc. Whilst not a perfect comparison, I think it is pretty reasonable. About the suicide thing-I'll try to find the source, but I remember reading that whilst attempted suicides had increased in Australia over the last decade, sucessful suicides had not increase significantly at all. Whilst this is not an absolutely direct corellation with lack of guns, I think it is reasonably sound to put the two together, at least partially.

Here's a url which refutes the allegations about suicide rates:

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/IASR/suicide-table1.htm

For those who don't want to take the time to check it out, the suicide rates in the US and Australia compare as follows:

County                    Male                     Female

United States          19.8                        4.4

Australia                  21.5                        5.0

Guess people can effectively commit suicide without firearms.

But, that's just common sense.

Well, that's another thing Hughento lacks.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Are, a) Blacks more likely to posses guns?, and b) More likely to use guns in crimes?

You can use all the abusiveness you have in you, I don't care. Guns kill people. Through people, sure, but they kill people, and a LOT more effectively then any other personal weapon.

I'm not even sure why i'm bothering. I have the fortune to live in a society that is relatively safe from gun-related crimes, and also a society in which I have no fear of gun-related crimes. Ask a single mother in Houston-black or white-if they are concerned about gun-related violence, and the answer you'll get almost all the time in 'yes'.

And whilst it's vaguely off topic, is it acceptable that in the USA a social group can be so significantly poorer then the rest of the population, so significantly more involved in crimes, including those related to guns, and so significantly more likely to have problems with drug addiction? Australia had these problems with our Aboriginal population, which makes up 2% of the total population. We've dealt significantly with the second problem; the first and third are still at unacceptably bad levels, but at least something has been done. It's also much harder to cope with Aboriginal communities, and whilst I won't go into that here, the basics are culture, isolation and poverty. The third is shared by both, but unlike in the United States, the average wealth of aboriginal Australians has skyrocketed over the last few decades-it's still very very low, but it is improving.

Once you become involved, Carl, arguments get abusive and messy. I will not continue to post in this thread. But it is my firm belief that once you take away all the ifs and buts, the core of the problem is higher rates of gun ownership, and thats why you're more likely to die at the hands of someone else then me. Enjoy your liberty to own a weapon of destruction; i'll enjoy my extra years of life.

Hugh, you are the one who has previously extremely derogatory statements about others (I believe one of the moderators called you on it).

Further, you make allegations which are simply and easily shown to be false.  When these are pointed out, you merely react emotionally, and refuse to acknowledge facts.

Oh, and BTW, in reference to your two questions, the best information available is: (a) no, (b) yes.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

Do you even care that the federal government is gun grabbing in New Orleans as we speak? Of course not, because Bush is President. The NRA doesn't care either.

Er, from the information I have, the actions were taken by the Louisiana National Guard, and efforts are being made to find out if the actions were taken with any orders or authorization, and if so who ordered/authorized such actions.

I suggest you check out title 42 section 1983 usca.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Hugh has trouble dealing with reality.