TIMOTHY EGAN: How Obama Saved Capitalism and Lost the Midterms

[CARLHAYDEN]

Actually TARP saved capitalism, passed under Bush. Obama was better at saving the jobs of public employees.

Torie,

You really are a hack!

Bush did not, repeat NOT, REPEAT NOT, "save capitalism."

You have told some whoppers here over the time but that's really over the top!!!

Bush merely gave public money to provide for bonuses for corporate big wigs who destoyed their own companies.

Capitalism does NOT include the concept of 'too big to fail.'

[CARLHAYDEN]

1- Statism is not Capitalism. If you are using uncapitalistic practices, it's not saving capitalism. It's replacing it.

Capitalism does NOT include the concept of 'too big to fail.'

What you capitalist deludeds fail to understand is capitalism is also Statism (the state imposing rule by the owners), and it failed, as it always fails - it will always fail to maximize economic growth and the well being of the majority.  It can be 'saved' by limiting it - balancing it with something better, namely state intervention.

Your lazy-fairy fantasy leads only to enormous unemployment, bare subsistence wages for those who are employed, and nearly all of society's production being monopolized by a tiny elite.

Now, I'd much prefer to have full-on Socialism compared to the above slave-camp, but I'm perfectly willing to compromise for a Social Democracy. (private restaurants and so forth).  Why aren't you?

2- That bailout is a known flop, even to many Democrats. Even Michael Moore made a big stink about it. Remember the bonuses, among other things?

No, the bailout was a stunning success, and a profit maker for the State.  The bonuses and other minor complaints are of no importance at all - the bailout saved capitalism from its inevitable descent in to catastrophic collapse.

Opebo,

Are you using Torie as an alter ego?

You both support statism.

Both of you seem to believe (rotflmao) that cqapitalism and statism are the same thring .

Both of you approve of a big centralized government which will rule over use for 'our own good,' even if it has to kill us.

Normally, I would say that you Opebo persohna is funnoier, but, the laughab ly absurd statement by 'Torie,' is funny as hell.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Was the Cold War not a contest between capitalism and communism? During the Cold War, the government was involved in the economy as well, although free markets were allowed to drive the vast majority of economic activity. And we called that capitalism. And so it is today. It is capitalism, not statism. If anything short of Ayn Rand's utopia is not capitalism, then we will never have capitalism.

The ironic thing is that had capitalism really been allowed to collapse, the ultimate result would be far, far more 'statist' than anything we have today. So Obama [with Bush circa late 2008] has done capitalism / libertarianism a double favor: first, by saving a relatively free system from collapse, prevented a far more statist future. Second, by bringing conservative anger on him, has energized the libertarians politically through the GOP and tea party. Because of this, he may be one of the most libertarian Presidents in history.

Yeah, and Hitler saved the jews, (by the explanation you are giving).

You have really lost it.

Nobody with any sense whatsoever would call Obama a libertarian!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl, what happens to a free market economy when the banks fail?

Torie, actually, it sounds to me like the people you're b-slapping are public employees.

Jesus Christ, political rhetoric in this country is depressing.

Lots of businesses fail in a free economy.

Torie doesn't want people to be responsible for their own actions.

[CARLHAYDEN]

CARL, calm down! You are shouting so loud at me, that my ears are ringing. Thanks.

And I had no idea that I would agitate you so. I mean, I thought I was posting something troglodytic and right wing, giving Obama a little b slap in the process, and suddenly you erupt and imply that I am some kind of commie pinko.

You know, THC can have a very soothing effect on all of those jangled nerves. Just a thought.

Try telling the truth for a change!

I don't object to you agreeing with Opebo, but rather with your misrepresentations.

I realize that lying is so soothing to you .

Oh, and Opebo is far more entertaining in his posts,

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl, what happens to a free market economy when the banks fail?

Lots of businesses fail in a free economy.

Torie doesn't want people to be responsible for their own actions.

Of course lots of businesses fail, but the failure of businesses, even very large ones, in a free-market economy does not have the same impact as major and massive banks that hold billions and billions of dollars of the assets of other individuals and businesses, as well as make businesses constant loans so they can get through their monthly and yearly business cycles.   

Torie has always sounded like a Republican to me, snarky shots at Obama and public employees and all.   

So, if a business gets to be gig enought, it w\ill not be allowed to fail?

There are a lot of big businesses in the United States that have failed, and we have survived just fine.

does anyone remember A & P?

If Torie had his way we would be spending billions proping up the buggy whip industry.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Carl, what happens to a free market economy when the banks fail?

Lots of businesses fail in a free economy.

Torie doesn't want people to be responsible for their own actions.

Of course lots of businesses fail, but the failure of businesses, even very large ones, in a free-market economy does not have the same impact as major and massive banks that hold billions and billions of dollars of the assets of other individuals and businesses, as well as make businesses constant loans so they can get through their monthly and yearly business cycles.   

Torie has always sounded like a Republican to me, snarky shots at Obama and public employees and all.   

So, if a business gets to be gig enought, it w\ill not be allowed to fail?

There are a lot of big businesses in the United States that have failed, and we have survived just fine.

does anyone remember A & P?

If Torie had his way we would be spending billions proping up the buggy whip industry.

Carl, it is not that a business would have failed, rather an entire industry.  An industry that contributes 8% toward GDP and makes possible pretty much every other economic activity.  Now you can argue that it never should have gotten to that point, but cascading bank failures would have been crippling to the US and global economy.  We basically bought ourselves some time to reform the system, however, I don't really see any movement on that front.

Yup, the world would have ended.

There would be no survivors.

NOT!

What happened was the federazl government stepped in and told large institutions that the rules that apply to the small guys don't apply to them.

The feds decided that large businesses would not be allowed to fail.

Its simply a case of the government picking winners and losers.

I prefer to let the marketplace make such suggests.

Statists, like Torie, really love big government and hate freedom, including free markets.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Exactly.  I do remember A&P, and they didn't make everybody else's individual and business transactions possible.

Hmm.

Being the world's largest grocer (circa 1950) isn't important, but a big bank is diferent.

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but, not so long ago federal law prohibited interstate banking, and hence, the megabanks (in the current context) didn't exist.  We survived just fine without megabanks.  From what you would have us believe, "individuazl and business transactions" would not be possible.  Which simply isn't the case.

Why do you hate allowing the consumers to make decisions and instead prefer to have the feds pick winners and losers?

You seem to believe that the banking industry is some sacred cow.

Believe it or not, in some countries the banks are part of the government.

More significantly, there are a large number of banks in places like lSwitzerland, Leichtenstein, and certain carribean islands, that exist just fine without the prospect of government subsidies.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You do realize that the government backs these banks depositors by FDIC and we would be on the hook for a lot more money that we spent if we had massive bank failures?

If the banking industry failed, yes it would have been very very bad Carl.  I think it would be better to have these institutions functioning and giving loans rather than going to Joey No Nose down the block for a micro-loan.  The issue was that if there were cascading failures (due to previous disgraceful risk management and borderline illegal activity) then there was a chance that there would not be a market place left to decide the winners and losers.

Yup.

Keep repeating the allegation that the world will end unless we make sure that the big banks are not allowed to fail.

Truth is, you just want to make sure that there is NO accountability for 'disgraceful risk management and illegal activity (not all borderline)' if the organization is both big and in the financial industry.

Basically, you have set up a situation not so very different from primitive socities of a few centuries ago where the 'nobility' diddn't have to bear responsibility for their actions.

Apparently big banks constitute the new nobility in your world.


Now, I have given numerous examples of where the world has functioned just fine without bailing out big banks, you merely repeat the canard that the world would end if we don't bail them out.

[CARLHAYDEN]

You do realize that the government backs these banks depositors by FDIC and we would be on the hook for a lot more money that we spent if we had massive bank failures?

If the banking industry failed, yes it would have been very very bad Carl.  I think it would be better to have these institutions functioning and giving loans rather than going to Joey No Nose down the block for a micro-loan.  The issue was that if there were cascading failures (due to previous disgraceful risk management and borderline illegal activity) then there was a chance that there would not be a market place left to decide the winners and losers.

Yup.

Keep repeating the allegation that the world will end unless we make sure that the big banks are not allowed to fail.

Truth is, you just want to make sure that there is NO accountability for 'disgraceful risk management and illegal activity (not all borderline)' if the organization is both big and in the financial industry.

Basically, you have set up a situation not so very different from primitive so cities of a few centuries ago where the 'nobility' didn't have to bear responsibility for their actions.

Apparently big banks constitute the new nobility in your world.


Now, I have given numerous examples of where the world has functioned just fine without bailing out big banks, you merely repeat the canard that the world would end if we don't bail them out.

Carl, 300 banks have been allowed to failures in the last three years.  The US government provided liquidity to the industry to forestall a general collapse. Most of TARP has been paid back and portions of the program made money. If we don't do something that reforms the system then I believe you have a point and we did create a moral hazard.  I agree that there should have been and needs to be more accountability. The system has to be reformed but the bank bailout was necessary and not that costly in the end. 

First, were the banks that were allowed to fail treated the same way as B of A and Citi?

We both know the answer to that.

Second, while you make like to reward big banks, and punish small banks (i.e. have the government pick winners and losers), I do NOT!

Third, the only reason that the TARP money has temporarily been paid back was so that the banks could provide even more outlandish bonuses for their executives  The banks receiving the bulk of the TARP funds haven't turned healthy, but rather have engaged in some creative accounting.  This creative accounting can go on only so long, which in part explains why the banks have gone into high gear on housing repossessions, including fabricating legal documents and filing perjorious affidavits.

In conclusion, the balilout of the big banks was NOT necessary, and we have yet to see the full costs.