Pledge of Allegiance Bill of 2005 (WITHDRAWN)

[MasterJedi]

I oppose this and want it to remain the way it has been all along!

[MasterJedi]

Athiest Jefferson can have his seperation of church and state.  That's not my interpretation of the constitution.

Separation of church and state was the intent of the Framers of the Bill of Rights, including Madison, and is supported by a great number of Supreme Court decisions and other precedents.

It's very interesting that "In God We Trust" is on our money and on a lot of federal buildings in Washington. We must leave the pledge the way it is and everything else involved with this the way it is.

[MasterJedi]

Let me ask you this Sam, if your amendment doesn't pass how would you vote on this bill?

[MasterJedi]

Let me ask you this Sam, if your amendment doesn't pass how would you vote on this bill?

Yes?

On mature reflection, it appears that the proposal seems to be a reasonable compromise. It removes a constitutional abomination from the pledge of allegiance, and establishes in its stead something factual, not religious and unverifiable. Therefore, if the Senate would agree to pass this bill with this amendment, I shall support Sen. Spade's idea.

He told me in a PM and I don't know if he wants me to let it out so I won't.

But I oppose his amendment and this bill.

[MasterJedi]

I will not support the abolition of the pledge. In the poll that's taking place more people want to keep the pledge the way it is or change it to "under Dave", not get rid of it.

I hope other Senators decide to vote Nay and keep the pledge the way it is.

[MasterJedi]

You know you have the right to say or not to say the pledge, you don't have to say it if you don't want to so your right is not being taken away.

I encourage the undecided Senators to vote against abolishing the pledge. If you must at least vote to change it instead of abolishing it but I still encourage all Senators to vote to keep the pledge the way it is!

[MasterJedi]

You are free to not say the pledge so it's not "forcing patriotism on you". If it was mandatory to say then I wouldn't mind changing that. They'd like you to say the pledge and be patriotic that way, I'll agree with you on that but they can't force you to do it.

[MasterJedi]

You are free to not say the pledge so it's not "forcing patriotism on you". If it was mandatory to say then I wouldn't mind changing that. They'd like you to say the pledge and be patriotic that way, I'll agree with you on that but they can't force you to do it.

Yes, of course it cannot be forced on anyone. However, the questions still are: what purpose does it serve? And, why should the government legislate patriotism?

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism. But as said before you don't have to do it but you want to take away people's rights like me (or many other people) who like saying/using the pledge because it's been around for a long time? And yes the government can try to legislate patriotism if they want to and if the people like it they'll stick with it and if the people don't like it it won't work, simple as that. Oh and as said earlier it's all mandatory so if the government tries and you don't like it don't do it but don't try to take away other people's right to do it that way.

[MasterJedi]

It's to try to give one, concrete way to express patriotism.

That's exactly my problem with the pledge. I see no reason for the government to say that there is one "official" way of expressing patriotism. The government should not seek to dictate what officially constitutes patriotism and what does not.

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That is, I'm afraid to say, a very flawed argument. We're not trying to take away anyone's free speech rights.

It's to try and give one way but it's not trying to make it the only way. If they did try to make the pledge the only way I'd be against it to but they're not so there is no logical reason to abolish or change it based on this.

If you're not trying to take away free speech in saying the pledge leave it the way it is and don't try to get rid of it. It won't be said that often if it is because you're saying "we don't like this idea".

[MasterJedi]

It's not like this will solve anything (you and me arguing). I'd like to see what the other Senators have to say now.

[MasterJedi]

What do you say to your constituents in your home region or district, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who, because of their religious beliefs, refuse to pledge allegiance to any government, country, or flag?

Jehovah's Witnesses are just lunatics. Fortunately for all of us, they don't vote.

Of course they're lunatics-- but they still have rights.

Yes your right, they don't have  to do anything that's patriotic, as I said before but you don't get that I guess. It's not mandatory.

And I oppose Emsoworth's amdmendment that Gabu introduced. (The new one too)

[MasterJedi]

It's not mandatory.

So why have it?

To give people the chance to show their patriotism during the times when the pledge is currently done now.

[MasterJedi]

To give people the chance to show their patriotism during the times when the pledge is currently done now.

Let them decide how to show their patriotism themselves. There is no need for the government to tell them how to do it; I'm sure that citizens are perfectly capable of being patriotic.

I government is asking not "telling" but you just want to abolish the pledge and not really listen to what I'm saying.

[MasterJedi]

Send out a PM, it'll make things easier IMO.

[MasterJedi]

An interesting sidenote:
I would like to ask which clause of the Atlasian Constitution authorizes the Senate to legislate patriotism in the first place.

We kept the pledge after writing the original constitution and then after this one. It was before our constitution and we kept it. If it was abolished then we couldn't bring it back but until then.......

[MasterJedi]

So that's

23 who want to keep the pledge (with or without changes)
13 who want to abolish it

And I will keep that in mind because I'd rather change it to "under Dave" then get rid of it entirely.

[MasterJedi]

Nay for the record.

[MasterJedi]

Nay

[MasterJedi]

2-2-2...

^

Results in the Senate look somewhat similar to the polls conducted on this issue.

True and there's at least one more Nay from PBrunsel so now it gets interesting. Maybe 3-3-3

[MasterJedi]

2-3-3 so far