Sen. Ted Kennedy is dead.

[The Duke]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

[The Duke]

For those who think the people making Chappaquidick jokes have no class, keep in mind that none of us ever drowned a girl nor did we ever lionize a man who drowned a girl.

This wasn't someone with whom I simply had political disagreements, this was a genuinely bad person.

[The Duke]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

[The Duke]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

[The Duke]

Hopefully, Ted will take this opportunity to apologize in person to Mary Jo Kopechne.

Jackass.

Ideologue.

[The Duke]

When I called texasgurl an ideologue, I did not mean she was a person who had an ideology.  I meant she is willing to forgive someone's disgusting personal behavior as long as the serve her ideology.  She worships the power of the state and will support anyone who seeks to expand that power, tossing aside all other values to achieve this overriding goal.

The people who choose to ignore Kennedy's personal failings or dismiss them as insignificant are ideologues.  They are excusing the inexcusable in the service of an ideology.

And you should note, that I made no disaparaging comments wen Paul Wellstone and Daniel Moynihan died.  Why?  Because they were decent men who disagreed with me on political issues.  Ted Kennedy was not a decent man.

[The Duke]

John D Ford:  So now we can start just assuming guilt of a crime and judge that person based on our assumptions?

Guilty until proven otherwise:  The Republican idea on justice.

Society can't put him in jail without convicting him, but any person can make their own private judgements about his culpability without waiting for a court verdict to tell them what to think.

True.

And likewise I feel the policies advocated by many conservatives have led to many deaths (far more than Sen. Kennedy was responsible for), and can thus dislike them for that even though they haven't been convicted in a court of law of murder.

I’m sorry, which canard are you introducing into the conversation?  The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by The canard that Republicans kill people by being warmongers or the canard that Republicans kill people by refusing to nationalize the health care system?

Both. Obviously you can argue that Democrats kill people by refusing to go to war or raising taxes or some such as well, and that'd be valid in some cases too.

I never said it was exclusive to the GOP, but if we're going to start blaming people for deaths that they are not legally responsible for, everyone will have some degree of blood on their hands....hence focusing so much attention on Kopechne doesn't really make sense.

I didn’t say Ted Kennedy was not legally responsible for the death of Mary Jo Kopechne.  He clearly committed manslaughter.  What I said was that I acknowledge he has never been held to answer for his crime, I never said he didn’t commit a crime.  Key distinction.

And in the cases of both war and health care, a utilitarian argument always exists that war saves lives net or that health care reform will save lives net.  But in the case of Kopechne, there is no argument that Kennedy’s behavior had some greater utilitarian value to society.  His behavior got a girl killed and there is no positive effect from his behavior, direct or indirect.  Therefore, his behavior is actually not comparable to Republican positions on the war or health care (nor, for that matter, is it comparable to Democratic positions on these issues).

I think your intentional effort to confuse the issue just proves my earlier point: You are trying to muddy the waters so you can absolve Kennedy of blame so you can keep the Kennedy myth alive and use it to advance a political agenda and I think its contemptible.  He did a terrible thing and very few people are willing to acknowledge it because they put ideology ahead of truth.