Opinion of the Roman Catholic Church

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church established by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and no matter how hard they may try, the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church established by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and no matter how hard they may try, the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.

I understand this type of sentiment.  I have first hand experience with it.

So, Libertas, do you believe that...killing millions in the name of the Lord is acceptable?  Or...is that Satan's work?  Or...molesting children?

I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools.  Hell, I sang in a Cathedral choir.  I lost my faith in the church gradually, due in no small part to the modern Catholic Church's perversion of Christ's teachings.

If John Paul II was still the Pope, I would have much more respect for the Church than I do now.

No, but unlike certain people here I don't let the bad actions committed by .01% of Catholics define and override the good done by the other 99.99%.

I didn't like John Paul II and I don't like Benedict XVI. Liking them is not part of the Catholic faith.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church established by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and no matter how hard they may try, the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.

I understand this type of sentiment.  I have first hand experience with it.

So, Libertas, do you believe that...killing millions in the name of the Lord is acceptable?  Or...is that Satan's work?  Or...molesting children?

I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools.  Hell, I sang in a Cathedral choir.  I lost my faith in the church gradually, due in no small part to the modern Catholic Church's perversion of Christ's teachings.

If John Paul II was still the Pope, I would have much more respect for the Church than I do now.

No, but unlike certain people here I don't let the bad actions committed by .01% of Catholics define and override the good done by the other 99.99%.

I didn't like John Paul II and I don't like Benedict XVI. Liking them is not part of the Catholic faith.

The Catholic Church is full of great people.  However, no other organization (I'm talking about the hierarchy) is so hypocritical.  It's teachings are so perverted from the original teachings of Christ I simply could not remain a member of it.

They preach practicing what you preach while they look down on other Christian denominations as inferior.

Once again, I'm speaking of the Vatican mainly.

Catholicism is the original teachings of Christ, preserved by the Apostles and their spiritual descendants through the centuries.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

My opinion of it has gone down immeasurably in the last couple months. There are still some great Catholics out there, and I respect a lot of them, but if we're talking about the hierarchy and institutions, then it's pretty despicable.

I went to a Catholic school and had a generally good experience, I really loved a couple of the priests(detested one though), and I attended a Catholic church as a kid from about the age of 8 to 14, and most of that time I was in Catholic schooling. I loved its theological depth and the commitment to intellectualism not found in many other denominations, and I respected its commitment to standing fast for objective morality despite the wave of liberalism that swept over the mainline Protestant denominations in the 20th Century.

There were a few things that irked me while I was involved with them. The most negative thing that sticks out in my mind was the funneling of funds from my parish(that I loved dearly), which was falling apart, in order to fund the already much nicer and bigger parish run by the main priest in the city, Fr. Jay. This was done under the guise of raising money for the school I went to. When the priest of my parish, Fr. Patrick, objected, suddenly the main priest claimed he was an alcoholic and had him sent to the boonies. The priest who replaced him, Fr. Steve, was a young guy who started attracting more people to our parish. All of a sudden he was sent to the small mission at the local college, quite a demotion. Fr. Jay was known to be a little too close to a guy named Dan that worked at the church office, if you know what I mean. This seemed to be not such a big deal to the congregants of Fr. Jay's church, who verbally harassed Fr. Steve when he showed up to a school field trip in the middle of May in shorts and a polo shirt instead of a black shirt and collar. It became apparent to me that appearances mattered more than genuine faithfulness and behavior. I once shared a car with Fr. Jay when I was at a retreat in the mountains with the youth group, and he invited me to come to his room(I kid you not), which I flatly refused and told him I knew what he was doing and that if he said anything else to me I'd tell the retreat organizers. This was almost two years before the scandals in Boston became big news.

I would normally write these stories off as a bad personal experience. After all I loved the church I was attending when not at school and the two priests that had been there were great teachers and awesome guys. They exemplified everything a serious Christian would want in a leader on a personal level. The good experiences I had caused me to attend a couple different Catholic churches last year, because I missed that which was good. The problem, though, is that I saw how people refused to talk about the things going on with Fr. Jay, and I saw how they treated the guys who were genuinely good men who they disliked because they might not have been as buttoned down. I knew that the church hierarchy in the area knew what was going on and helped facilitate a bad apple because it was common knowledge in my parish.

I see that same stuff on a much bigger and more severe scale now, and even though there are great people and great churches within the organization, I don't think I could ever be a part of it. For the church to ever regain my respect there has to be an extreme amount of house cleaning going on, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Sorry, Libertas.

Well of course, it's understandable, the credibility of the Church has been greatly tarnished by the evil men who've risen to power since the mid-20th century.

But you shouldn't let that interfere with your own spiritual journey. In antiquity the true and faithful Catholics were persecuted while the Arian heretics took over the institutional church. The faithful were and are the Church, not the corrupt and perverse clergy.

 The situation is much the same today. We need good men and women to join and remain with the Church for its problems to be fixed, not to leave it to these freaks to do with as they wish.

I much prefer independent churches myself. The less associations with the Novus Ordo hierarchy, the better.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

A menace to the Civilized World for nearly 2000 years. It's an organization full of liars, hypocrites, and authoritarians.

Oh, you mean like the human race?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

A menace to the Civilized World for nearly 2000 years. It's an organization full of liars, hypocrites, and authoritarians.

Oh, you mean like the human race?

Not exactly. The Catholic Church was the main instigator of violence for nearly 1000 years. In the middle ages if you were a Christian following a school different from Catholicism, there was no other penalty but violence and death. And if you were an enemy of the Pope, or even just a Country of a different faith, well you could expect a Crusade at your doorsteps. Didn't agree with everything the Church said? To the Inquisition with you! I mean if Christianity is all about confessing to your sins, then the Catholic Church has about 2000 years worth of sins to own up to.

Sorry, but we can please improve the level discourse here above some baseless anti-Catholic medieval fearmongering?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

A menace to the Civilized World for nearly 2000 years. It's an organization full of liars, hypocrites, and authoritarians.

Oh, you mean like the human race?

Not exactly. The Catholic Church was the main instigator of violence for nearly 1000 years. In the middle ages if you were a Christian following a school different from Catholicism, there was no other penalty but violence and death. And if you were an enemy of the Pope, or even just a Country of a different faith, well you could expect a Crusade at your doorsteps. Didn't agree with everything the Church said? To the Inquisition with you! I mean if Christianity is all about confessing to your sins, then the Catholic Church has about 2000 years worth of sins to own up to.

Sorry, but we can please improve the level discourse here above some baseless anti-Catholic medieval fearmongering?

...

... how was my argument baseless? It's a well known fact that the Vatican used Warmongering Crusading to further their political agenda and continually burned and killed those who didn't agree with every principle in the Catholic Church. If you have facts that can rebuke what I laid out, please share.

Uh, no, that's not a "well-known fact". I'm talking about real history, not a cartoon version.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

A menace to the Civilized World for nearly 2000 years. It's an organization full of liars, hypocrites, and authoritarians.

Oh, you mean like the human race?

Not exactly. The Catholic Church was the main instigator of violence for nearly 1000 years. In the middle ages if you were a Christian following a school different from Catholicism, there was no other penalty but violence and death. And if you were an enemy of the Pope, or even just a Country of a different faith, well you could expect a Crusade at your doorsteps. Didn't agree with everything the Church said? To the Inquisition with you! I mean if Christianity is all about confessing to your sins, then the Catholic Church has about 2000 years worth of sins to own up to.

Sorry, but we can please improve the level discourse here above some baseless anti-Catholic medieval fearmongering?

...

... how was my argument baseless? It's a well known fact that the Vatican used Warmongering Crusading to further their political agenda and continually burned and killed those who didn't agree with every principle in the Catholic Church. If you have facts that can rebuke what I laid out, please share.

Uh, no, that's not a "well-known fact". I'm talking about real history, not a cartoon version.

...Ok... please tell me then, what is the real history of the Catholic Church?

Right, let's sum up the history of a 2000-year-old global institution in a couple of quick simplistic soundbytes...that's a bad idea, Giovanni.

Educate yourself.

There's plenty to read on the history of the Church.

One good book to read is Tom Woods' book How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

While it is undeniable that many evils have and continue to exist within the Church, I feel like most people overlook the fact that the Catholic Church does, by far, the most good of any church in the world.

No other church has the level of dedication to social justice and the welfare of every person as the Catholic Church does. The Church operates thousands of hospitals, thousands of shelters, and thousands of schools throughout the world where there would otherwise be none. No other church does more for the impoverished, the hungry, and the needy of their communities than the Catholic Church. They never turn away a person in need. They practice a philosophy of peace, and actively help those seeking asylum from conflict and war.

The Catholic Church has been a friend of the scientific and artistic communities for many centuries now. Many of the greatest paintings and sculptures of the exist solely because of the Church. They are not so crass as to deny the discoveries of science, unlike so many other churches. They do not preach a exclusivity like many others religions, and, in fact, foster intellectual inquiry.

Of course the Church has its issues. It has deep ones at that. The Church needs to be more open to the reality that they are, as any institution made up of people, capable of errors, hypocrises,  and failings, occasionally terrible ones. Instead of trying to pursue a persona of incorruptibility, they must more readily flush those who commit grave crimes from their system and hold them accountable.

Nevertheless, the percentage of priests who do commit these acts of pedophilia is very minute; in fact, sexual abusers make up a much lower percentage amongst priests than amongst the general population. These are people who have willingly chosen what they knew to be a life of chastity; it was not forced upon them. If they wanted to have sex, they should have chosen a different line of work. The problem is not the system, but the individuals who abuse it.

Thank you for an excellent and well-balanced post. If this forum had a rep system you'd a green for it.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Something tells me StatesRights did not enjoy the Assassin's Creed games.

Why not? What does enjoying a video game have to do with this thread topic?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church itself is a corrupted, bigoted hate organization. It does not reflect well on everyday Catholics - because believe me, I was born into them.

The Church is not a corrupted bigoted hate organization.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church itself is a corrupted, bigoted hate organization. It does not reflect well on everyday Catholics - because believe me, I was born into them.

The Church is not a corrupted bigoted hate organization.

The organized part of it is just a tool for controlling unsuspecting masses. As I said, the religion itself is not inherently that way. It's just the figureheads that claim to lead it.

Even within the institutional church, such people are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of clergy at all levels are good people dedicated to their mission of spreading the love of Christ, not hate.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The Church is not a corrupted bigoted hate organization.

They certainly act like one.  The Church has squandered its moral authority, and it has none left.

Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Of course we never hear about them on here or in the mainstream media.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Of course we never hear about them on here or in the mainstream media.

  I'll not even bother describing why this absurd; just look at the purpose of the website you got the info from.

Uh, the purpose is to expose and oppose sexual abuse.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Uh, the purpose is to expose and oppose sexual abuse.

Exactly.  The RCC, especially the Pope, has done very little to correct the abuses going on in the Church.  There is no comparison.  The RCC has lost it's moral authority.

Um, that organization was not created by the rabbis themselves. It's an external thing. There are external Catholic groups that oppose sexual abuse too. The comparison between clergy is perfectly fitting.

Judaism has lost it's moral authority.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The comparison is not apt.  In the RCC, the highest levels of the Church hierarchy are suppressing these investigations, and covering up abuse.  There is no such cover up in Judaism; partly because there is no such hierarchy, partly because the level of abuse is not nearly as large in terms of scale.

As a matter of scale, Jewish rabbis commit sexual abuse against children just as much as, if not more so, than 'Catholic' clergy did relative to their numbers.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

3) "Ratzinger is an ultra-reactionary, I always knew this!"  And so, like many other people, you actually don't have a clue.  John Paul II was a pretty reactionary Pope.  People didn't think so because of his great PR, but compared to the four guys who preceded him (including Pius XII) he was fairly conservative.

I'm aware that John Paul II was a very conservative Pope, and I was hardly a fan. Regardless of this, his successor is, in my eyes, a true reactionary. 
From what I know Ratzinger actually was fairly liberal until Vaticanum II and the 1968 movement. I don't know what caused his change of face, but from that on he stood against every single reform, every emancipatory movement.

Benedict never had a chance, because from the time he stepped out on the balcony, it was clear to people that he wasn't "Uncle Fluffy", and did not have the personal charisma of JPII... ergo, he must be this mean, old, conservative man.

That's certainly wrong for Germany, and I think for the whole world. You may have seen this famous headline before. It's from BILD, the German paper with the highest circulation:



"Our Joseph Ratzinger is Benedikt XVI. We are Pope!"

Benedikt was almost a popstar during the first month in office. The World Youth Day 2005 was little more then one great Pope-show. No, Benedikt has had a chance. He didn't take advantage.

The sentence "We are Pope" is of course a perversion of German grammar, by the way.

"Undemocratic!"  The Church has this bizarre notion that democracy doesn't, by necessity, convey moral authority, and often times does just the opposite.  It's one that our friend from Germany, who made the charge, ought to be familiar with.

Everything you say is true. Still I prefer democracy with all it's flaws over moral dictatorship from unelected authorities.  But that is the Catholic's business, not mine. I have no intention to give advice to Catholics how to organize their church. It's just that personally, I prefer a decentralized, bottom-up church.

John Paul II and Benedict XVI were and are both ultra-liberals who exalted the perverse 'spirit of Vatican II' above all else.