SCOTUS overturns Roe megathread (pg 53 - confirmed)

[Badger]

HALLELUJAH!

GOD BE WITH US IN THIS MOMENT OF GRACE!

And neither you nor any of the other little zealots who liked this post will raise a pinky finger to take care of the millions of unwanted pregnancies that result from this decision. Per usual, you'll be Christians with overwhelming piety when it comes to Taliban style laws removing individual liberties, but you'll remain good Republicans before Christians when it comes to issues like having a government actively involved in charity.

Hypocrites.

[Badger]

How likely is this to become a real ruling? This draft looks more like a political document, not a court opinion.

Opponents of Roe v. Wade have been trying to overturn that ruling for 49 years. The Democrats can't just say this draft is a complete surprise now. They had chances to codify Roe v. Wade, and opted not to do it.

Oh b*******. Even the age of a supermajority there weren't enough votes codify Roe. And furthermore it could have been would have been swept away with the next Republican trifecta.

Aim your outrage where it belongs.

[Badger]

THE CONCERN IS APPROACHING LEVELS NEVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1521490781638385664?s=20&t=QMKsb7TR_4MlCg1...

F*** off Susan you completely obnoxious political animal. No one is fooled by your game anymore. Well, other than the 2020 Maine voters

[Badger]

Biden states;

Banned - Michigan, Arizona, Georgia.
Restricted - Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Virginia.
Not protected - New Hampshire, New Mexico

Rest are protected by law

Trump states;

Protected by law - Montana
Restricted - Indiana, West Virginia, Florida, Nebraska, Kansas

Rest are banned.

Rest are banned

At least one election this could affect would be giving Shapiro a boost in the governor's race.

[Badger]

It's pretty wild, and under discussed, how Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett all blatantly lied to the Senate about how they respected Roe's precedent.

It's underreported because frankly no one, in Congress, the media, or nearly any voter paying attention actually believed them for a second.

[Badger]

At some point we need to start ignoring the courts.

What exactly does "ignoring the courts" entail here?

Arguing that Marbury v. Madison/judicial review was an invalid and unconstitutional ruling/concept; that the Supreme Court is an advisory body; and adopting the paraphrased spirit of Andrew Jackson (and Jefferson before him): ("[The court] has made [its] decision; now let [them] enforce it").

As Matt Bruenig argues at the People's Policy Project, it would be quite easy in practical terms to get rid of judicial review: "All the president has to do is assert that Supreme Court rulings about constitutionality are merely advisory and non-binding, that Marbury (1803) was wrongly decided, and that the constitutional document says absolutely nothing about the Supreme Court having this power." So, for instance, if Congress were to pass some law expanding Medicare, and the reactionaries on the court say it's unconstitutional because Cthulhu fhtagn, the president would say "no, I am trusting Congress on this one, and I will continue to operate the program as instructed."

And what if the red state governors were just to ignore the Courts? Have the state police shutter any building offering abortion services? 'State's rights, make someone stop us.' The US military is sent in?

Or better yet, if red state governors have the courts on their side and ignore Biden edicts, as the situation is likely to exist. Is the military still supposed to enforce that?

There is precedent for this. If you think carefully about American history I'm sure you'll Spot It.

[Badger]

Women's abortion issues are a personal issue. No one should know about it. Period. Stay out of it.

I'll leave it at that.

Child abuse is a personal issue. No one should know about it. Period. Stay out of it.

I'll leave it at that.

You see, YOUR House of Warships clergy might believe in abortion rights and / or question whether life begins at conception, but MY houses of worship clergy believe life begins at conception and should be protected by law with zero exceptions. And since MY clergy has five votes on the Supreme Court and YOURS has only three or four, MY religious views are now the law of the land! See how simple that is?

[Badger]

Women's abortion issues are a personal issue. No one should know about it. Period. Stay out of it.

I'll leave it at that.

Child abuse is a personal issue. No one should know about it. Period. Stay out of it.

I'll leave it at that.

You see, YOUR House of Warships clergy might believe in abortion rights and / or question whether life begins at conception, but MY houses of worship clergy believe life begins at conception and should be protected by law with zero exceptions. And since MY clergy has five votes on the Supreme Court and YOURS has only three or MY religious views are now the law of the land! See how simple that is?

No Fhtagn's views on this issue are not made the law of the land by this ruling. What this does is kick the issue back to the elected legislators to decide which laws will get implemnted in their state. Heck in states like Michigan , where ballot measures exist you can put it up to a vote whether Roe should be codified or not.

OOOOHH. So if her religious views now have a majority in the particular State Legislature (aided substantially by rampant gerrymandering in Most swing states of course) then their religious views become the law of the land there, whereas it they don't have a majority in another state their religious views won't become law of the land there because fetal viability of course is known to change from state to state.

I can't believe even you posted that with seeming complete lack of awareness as to how that is so not, under any definition, a better answer.

[Badger]

Here is another poll:



https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-just-over-half-favor-banning-abortions-after-15-weeks

Oh well if a majority believe in taking away people's rights, that makes it okay! More genius brain at work folks.

And of course let's not forget that abortion pulling is notoriously scattershot depending on the phrasing of the question, the particular sample, the phases of the moon, Etc. It truly eclipses just about any other issue on that subject.

Also, let's see how those poll numbers react when Republican legislators inevitably start Banning absolute abortion bans upon conception, with all too many states not even leaving exceptions for rape or danger to the mother's life.

[Badger]

Here is another poll:



https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-just-over-half-favor-banning-abortions-after-15-weeks

Oh well if a majority believe in taking away people's rights, that makes it okay! More genius brain at work folks.

And of course let's not forget that abortion pulling is notoriously scattershot depending on the phrasing of the question, the particular sample, the phases of the moon, Etc. It truly eclipses just about any other issue on that subject.

Also, let's see how those poll numbers react when Republican legislators inevitably start Banning absolute abortion bans upon conception, with all too many states not even leaving exceptions for rape or danger to the mother's life.

Name me the provision in the constitution where it says people have a right to an abortion

Read Roe versus Wade. But first you would have to re-educate yourself from grade 1 regarding critical thinking.

It should take only a couple minutes once you download it to your RAM processor

[Badger]

Here is another poll:



https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-just-over-half-favor-banning-abortions-after-15-weeks

Oh well if a majority believe in taking away people's rights, that makes it okay! More genius brain at work folks.

And of course let's not forget that abortion pulling is notoriously scattershot depending on the phrasing of the question, the particular sample, the phases of the moon, Etc. It truly eclipses just about any other issue on that subject.

Also, let's see how those poll numbers react when Republican legislators inevitably start Banning absolute abortion bans upon conception, with all too many states not even leaving exceptions for rape or danger to the mother's life.

Name me the provision in the constitution where it says people have a right to an abortion

Name me the provision in the constitution where it says people have the right to exist. Checkmate liberal, let’s nuke this planet!

Its called the 5th amendment

That is for criminal cases lol. Besides not everyone will die from nukes.

5th amendment due process applies to fed regs that affect property rights too. Not at all limited to criminal. All of those proposed fed regs getting notice and comments is because of 5th amendment due process. A civil committment is 5th amendment due process too.

Still completely irrelevant to beep boop's silly point.

[Badger]

And ISTFG, if Manchin & Sinema won't finally vote to end the filibuster, at least on a bill to just do a Lilly Ledbetter & statutorily codify Roe, then what good are they even for? We have to assume that we only have the majority for 8 more months. Use it, f**kers! This, if NOTHING else, is what it's f**king for!!

Well Manchin is pro-life. In fact he probably would have lost to a Republican in West Virginia in 2018 if he supported Roe. So I'm not sure what you're complaining about there.

Joe Manchin is pro-Joe Manchin. He will do whatever enables him to exercise the most influence, flip-flopping included.

Manchin exercises the most influence by getting re-elected by West Virginians in 2024. Voting for a federal abortion law would end his political career. Would Roe be safer with Patrick Morrisey in the Senate and a Republican majority blocking Breyer from retiring?

If you want to be angry at a Democratic politician for lacking votes in the Senate to enshrine Roe, be angry at Cal Cunningham, Sarah Gideon and Ben Nelson for blowing winnable races in purple states. Being angry at Manchin for not signing Democrats' political death warrant in his state is infantile.

Or, rather than be mad at a few Democrats who lost races oh, why don't we save our anger and approbation underwear deserves, i. P. Every single goddamn Republican member of Congress including and up to Susan Collins in her God damned hypocritical concern trolling?

[Badger]

While this is obviously GREAT news, pray that the 5 Supreme Court justices in the pro-life majority remain strong until the verdict is official. Pray for the state governments around the country that will determine abortion laws in every state.

Pray for the hearts and minds of every person in this nation. Pray that the Church will be able to continue to stand for both unborn babies and mothers with love, Truth, and compassion!

But, most of all, I'm so happy that I literally just cried. I've been waiting for this day since January 2008 (when I first heard of abortion) and sometimes wondered if it would ever come!!

You flaming hypocrite. While you celebrate giddily at a government taking aggressive action to enforce your personal social and religious code to the rest of the country,, you are obviously never going to ask for your government to be aggressively Christian on issues related to charity. No, the literally millions of additional children including tens of thousands in your own state who are born unwanted and in need of vastly expanded Social Services, nutritional Aid, decent schools, and a whole host of Social Services will be written off by you and your Republican ilk. You'll throw an extra fiver in the poor box and call it a day.

At least some rare pro-life Advocates like fuzzy bear genuinely believe in the need to aggressively support the poor through government action. You've bleached your proclamation of how does the victory for Christianity, but when the time comes to actually pay the bill or follow anything from the Gospel of Luke, folks like you will undoubtedly be Republicans first and Christian second. Invariably your half-assed ideas for charity will somehow involve across-the-board tax cuts and spending cuts. And it will all be delivered in a saccharine-sweet smile wishing thoughts and prayers to all those new poor children whose families can't take care of them.

[Badger]

A literal Nazi. Definitely someone looking out for women's rights.

It's clear that anyone who uses terms like "Birthing people", "Birthing bodies", etc. never really cared about women.

That terminology is undeniably cringe-worthy and eye roll inducing, but such bizarre hyperbole to claim such overly woke language demonstrates the author supposedly " never cared about women" is even more ridiculous by a significant magnitude of scale.

[Badger]

JFC

https://twitter.com/rtraister/status/1522014695057772546?s=20&t=mX9ARxwqbXxI...

One can say without an ounce of hyperbole that that is straight up Gilead level $hit.

[Badger]

I am going to lay out my arguments here for the reason Roe should not remain:

1) Taxpayers should not fund abortion, it is a wasteful practice

2) 10th amendment - powers are reserved to the states to safeguard the life of its people. Bodily autonomy gives no right to kill another.

3) 14th amendment - power is granted to government to provide "equal protection" under the laws. An abortion denies due process to an unborn fetus. As a result, it can be deemed unlawful if Roe is overturned.

Point one. Taxpayer funds are largely prohibited from use of abortion anyway. But regardless, that is a completely ancillary issue to the right to have an abortion. Utterly and completely apples and oranges.

Point2. The Tenth Amendment does it mean that states have the authority to ignore the rest of the Constitution. Even if one can debate whether or not there's a constitutional right to privacy covering such things as contraception sodomy, interracial marriage, Etc, citing the 10th Amendment as some legal Authority basically saying states can do whatever they want is Balderdash that even most conservative constitutional Scholars would not begin to embrace.

Third, the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly States, and I quote, all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens. Implying citizenship to a newly fertilized egg or even a three months old fetus is at best and extremely novel argument, and more accurately completely antithetical to the 14th amendments explicit language.

Now that you understand your basis for opposing roe literally does not have a shred of constitutional authority to back it up, I assume you now support roe being maintained?

[Badger]

Great. Now, abortion should be banned federally from the moment of conception with exception only for the life of the mother.

Why do you want to force women to carry their rapist's baby?

Stated reason. Because Jesus.

Real reason. Not my problem. Don't give a s***.

[Badger]

Great. Now, abortion should be banned federally from the moment of conception with exception only for the life of the mother.

Can you explain to me why you are not for exceptions in the case of rape?

I'd argue that pro-lifers who support rape exceptions are logically inconsistent.  If you think that an unborn baby is a life of equal value to that of the mother, the circumstances in which he or she was conceived do not matter.

But by that standard allowing abortion for the life of the mother is also inconsistent. If the life of the unborn is of equal value in the minds of anti-choicers then there should be no exceptions at all. If the mother stays alive while the fetus dies then that is not equal. The bottom line is that anti-abortion logic is nonsensical.

Self Defense Laws exist though and if a pregnancy threatens a women’s life then terminating it would be self defense . Not having a life exception would be insane even for the most pro life folks due  to this

There has been a line of argument among some anti-abortion activists over the years--which has been muted much like their opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest due to political reasons, but has now been Unleashed now that they see they won and don't have to worry about keeping the mask on--that abortions to save the life of the mother are in fact almost unheard-of due to modern medicine and Technology.

This is of course complete b*******, but today's conservatives rely on convincing themselves of a steady stram of b******* to justify their aims. So I don't see this as potentially being too far outside the realm of possibility in hard core (Atlas) blue states.

[Badger]

THE CONCERN IS APPROACHING LEVELS NEVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1521490781638385664?s=20&t=QMKsb7TR_4MlCg1...

F*** off Susan you completely obnoxious political animal. No one is fooled by your game anymore. Well, other than the 2018 Maine voters

2020

Blame Sara Gideon, the worst Democratic Senate campaign in the country.

No, blame Susan Collins for being a damn hypocrite. I'm not going to accept this garbage BS argument that Democrats who have 99% gone to the mattresses for the pro-choice movement for the last few decades are somehow even comfortable, even remotely, in blame two goddamn hypocrite and political two timers like Susan Collins, to say nothing of the Taliban jihadist who inhabit Are Congress and Judiciary today.

F*** the Biden-Collins voters who couldn't see what a God damn phony she always was and just how important this issue was at the time

[Badger]

Here's a deep question. If the pregnant women is comatose, and puling the plug would also mean the death of the fetus, would it be considered an abortion ? Who gives the right to decide what happens to the mother AND the baby ?

Well, the obvious answer should be the next of kin after making a thoughtful, likely prayerful, and above all painful personal decision based on those that knew and loved the woman closest.

But according to Republicans the proper answer is, a majority of one's (likely gerrymandered) State Legislature.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1522044847254872064

Republicans are monsters

If this comes to be and things get this bad, it almost becomes morally imperative to take things into your own hands. At the very least, sane people should evacuate.

But most people won't, because they have their lives and jobs and Families to deal with along with the communities they've lived in for years, and this will only become an issue when and if an unintended pregnancy arises, which people don't expect in advance, hence the term unintended.

And even then, those who struggle the most economically, which are hardly just the poor, and rely on a social network of family and close friends for not only immediate financial support but in direct financial support with things like Child Care, aren't going to have the wherewithal too readily locate even when an unintended pregnancy arises.

Progressives are going to have to create an underground railroad system to finance getting poor women in red States who want to terminate their pregnancy to the safety of a blue State, and litigate the forthcoming Dred Scott-Fugitive Slave Act style laws Republicans will inevitably enact.

Edit: and Klndly don't criticize me for posting something like eight things in a row. I don't live online, and simply took some time in my mid morning routine to go through the thread and respond to posts as I read them

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1522044847254872064

Republicans are monsters

If this comes to be and things get this bad, it almost becomes morally imperative to take things into your own hands. At the very least, sane people should evacuate.

But most people won't, because they have their lives and jobs and Families to deal with along with the communities they've lived in 4 years oh, and this will only become an issue when an f and unintended pregnancy arises, which people don't expect hence the term unintended.

And even then, those who struggle the most economically, which are hardly just the poor, and rely on a social network of family and close friends for not only immediate financial support but in direct financial support with things like Child Care, aren't going to have the wherewithal too readily locate even when an unintended pregnancy arises.

Progressives are going to have to create an underground railroad system to finance getting poor women in red States who want to terminate their pregnancy to the safety of a blue State, and litigate the inevitable Dred Scott Fugitive Slave Act style laws Republicans will inevitably enact.

Edit: and Kylie don't criticize me for posting something like eight things in a row. I don't live online, and simply took some time in my mid morning routine to go through the thread and respond to posts as I read them

Oh Jesus, we're going into Civil War aren't we ?

No, but the battle in the courts and the legislators will be grotesque. We are facing a horrendous breakdown of democracy, though. We've been inflicted with increasing levels of minority rule through Republican machinations since they realize they generally cannot win the popular vote anymore and, despite little shifts around the edges such as Trump doing better with rural Hispanics and some Asians in the last election, demographic changes and the attitude of most people under 40 with college degrees towards the GOP make it an increasingly difficult proposition for the future. Unprecedented levels of gerrymandering, totally a historic levels of abuse of the filibuster, plus ingrained level of anti-democratic measures such as the Electoral College and the Senate's over-representation of rural States, the essential deck of campaign Finance laws, etc etc. Means we are facing a fundamental crisis where popular will simply is irrelevant anymore, which has led to an even deeper existential crisis in trust in democracy and, justifiably, the capacity of our current governing structure to accomplish anything. No, I don't think it's going to go to war, but we are crumbling from internal corruption and rot not unlike the Roman Empire over fifteen hundred years ago

[Badger]

So what would happen if a woman, who lives in a state where abortion is illegal, travels to a state where abortion is legal, and has the procedure. Could her home state successfully charge her as an accessory to murder? Could they successfully charge the doctor, who lives in the legal-state and never stepped foot in the illegal-state, with murder?

Short answer, who knows?

Longer answer, Republicans will absolutely try

[Badger]

Third, the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly States, and I quote, all persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens. Implying citizenship to a newly fertilized egg or even a three months old fetus is at best and extremely novel argument, and more accurately completely antithetical to the 14th amendments explicit language.

So if somehow the right manages to twist around the literal word "born" in the Amendment to imply citizenship to the unborn, here are a couple of interesting questions:

1. Would a child born in the U.S. but conceived outside of it be a citizen of the U.S.?

2. The reverse: would a child conceived in the U.S. but born outside of it be a citizen?

And if that's not enough cans of worms yet, how about the census?  It calls for enumerating the number of "persons" in the U.S.  If personhood begins at conception...

I suspect the Republican answer will be to count them for three-fifths of a person

[Badger]

I deleted the post quoted above as I could not find a second source to verify it.

Sen. Kevin Cramer, R-N.D., said he expects a push for federal abortion restrictions.

“Just take my state of North Dakota. Having a North Dakota child killed in the womb in Fargo versus Moorhead, Minnesota, you know, on the other side of the Red River — I don’t find a lot of solace in that just because it didn’t happen in my state,” Cramer said. “I think you could expect that pro-life activists would push for federal protections. I mean, I wouldn’t take that off the table.”

He's a crazy.

Not at all. He's an absolute run-of-the-mill anti-choice politician. A typical Republican in 2022.