Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Badger]

So much disinfo and wishcasting. It's okay to condemn Russia but let's be honest about this situation.

90% of this thread is misinformation as it is gathered from total misinformation from Twitter.......followed by 10% wishcasting. Interesting choice of word, but it fits well.

You are spot on.

I would not suggest reporting on any war has ever been any different.

 You say this in a tone that implies you have have specialized knowledge as to "what's supposedly REALLY going on".  Pray, do educate us.

[Badger]

If they can't show how any specific bit of information is wrong, and they aren't posting any information of their own, then they can go suck eggs.

[Badger]

There is this problem:

https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1506869254326566913

The Ukrainians are doing so much killing that they are running out of weapons and ammunition, esp. antitank and antiaircraft missiles.

We need to do better than this at supplying them weapons.

They are literally fighting the war for us, for our values.

Cringe, They are fighting for their own nation, you literally just posted Russian propaganda in how Ukraine is puppeted by the West .

 Poland fought for its own nation as well as our values in 1939. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

[Badger]

If they can't show how any specific bit of information is wrong, and they aren't posting any information of their own, then they can go suck eggs.

This is nonsense. Reports about a war from belligerents are always questionable due to the clear bias and interests of the reporting party. They are expected to produce reports exaggerating their wins and downplaying their losses. Any thinking person should automatically question their reliability. The burden of proof is on the Ukrainians (or the Russians) to prove that they are telling the truth, not on us to refute them.

 As was previously noted, you talk a big game about "disinformation"  "looking at both sides" "trying to get multiple sources" And "telling things as they are rather than as we want them to be" . And yet, as was also pointed out, you habitually actually do the exact opposite of all those things.

You sir, are the biggest purveyor of BS propaganda in this thread rather than factual dissemination.

[Badger]

There is this problem:

https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1506869254326566913

The Ukrainians are doing so much killing that they are running out of weapons and ammunition, esp. antitank and antiaircraft missiles.

We need to do better than this at supplying them weapons.

They are literally fighting the war for us, for our values.

Cringe, They are fighting for their own nation, you literally just posted Russian propaganda in how Ukraine is puppeted by the West .

 Poland fought for its own nation as well as our values in 1939. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

Yeah Poland totally fought for Democratic values by working with Nazi Germany to take land from the only actual democracy in central Europe in 1938. Poland wasn't as bad as either Nazi Germany or the USSR but at the same time they weren't exactly a paragon of Democracy.

 And neither is Ukraine, though markedly better than Poland and the 2nd Republic. But still, light years ahead of its opponent.  And to the extent that fighting anti authoritarianism and fascit's unfashionable was our value values, they were undoubtedly fighting for it. Ditto for Ukraine.

 And let's not forget that whole belief in International law thing by respecting other countries established sovereign borders. Fighting the concept of "might makes right" is very much our values.

[Badger]

I thought I saw this 400,000 figures yesterday, but then could not find it, but it is back as to the matter of the movement of Ukrainians into Russia. The number and whether the movement is voluntary or involuntary, or both, and if involuntary, what the Russian intent is, is clouded by the fog of war.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/599686-over-400000-ukrainians-taken-to-russia-against-their-will?utm_source=thehill&utm_medium=widgets&utm_campaign=es_recommended_content

BBC has excellent maps of the state of the battle in Ukraine, including zoom in insets.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682

 This mass ethnic cleansing is the most under reported aspect of this war

[Badger]

Very recently had posted about potential splits within the Eastern Orthodox Church since Russia's attempted Invasion and Occupation of Ukraine.

Nobody on Atlas really payed attention on my initial reports, but looks like a real split might be starting to develop....

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1507856547891888130?s=20&t=WELvyZUd...

PiT in shambles.

[Badger]

I've seen two videos of war crimes today. The first one is of Russian captives being shot in the legs and interrogated. In the second video there are bodies of Ukrainian POWs lined up, some of them with point blank bullet wonds. This war will get nastier the longer it goes on.

Links?not ghoulish, just seeking first hand confirmation

[Badger]

From the Kyiv Independent:

Dozens of Ukrainian communities, monasteries move to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. Ukrainian Orthodox Church leader, Metropolitan Epiphanius I of Kyiv, made the announcement via Twitter on March 26. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church reported earlier on March 25 that 28 communities in nine oblasts have officially switched from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) to the independent Orthodox Church of Ukraine since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

https://kyivindependent.com/

Article based upon Twitter feed from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church leader.

https://twitter.com/Epifaniy/status/1507713306852839424?s=20&t=x_ZIeI4KzAJTg...

PiT furious

[Badger]

Oh god Zelensky please don’t. If he gives up 1 yard of Ukraine soil he’ll just be inviting Putin to try this again in the future and would effectively kill the UN charter which forbids the seizure of land via force

I believe in might makes right and right of conquest so I really do not care about this UN charter. 

You have a well documented history of being an ethical and moral eunuch, but even by that standard this is reprehensible.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1508788564418605058
https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1508061781536780290
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1508659205527457793
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1508659206890606594

The nationalism of man wrapped in a patina of faux Christianity. Patriarch Kirill is a disgrace to his church.

[Badger]

Anyone who still supports Russia or even both sides this is a absolute coward and should emigrate to Russia. Sorry not sorry.

And it's getting to the point where the West needs to be less concerned about joining in. You can't let someone have carte blanche over a country because of nukes. That is a worrying precedent long-term.

[Badger]

Viktor Orban, having won a landslide victory, says that Zelensky was an "opponent" he defeated in his campaign. He now has a huge mandate of the Hungarian people behind him. How long can the EU "united front" last? Don't they need unanimous consent to do anything?

Hungary's authoritarian leader and longtime Russian ally, Viktor Orban, has declared victory in the country's parliamentary elections, clinching a fourth consecutive term in power.

Orban's Fidesz party had a commanding lead with 71% of the votes counted, Hungary's national elections board said on Sunday evening.

The election campaign was dominated by Moscow's invasion of Ukraine, which put Orban's lengthy association with Russian President Vladimir Putin under scrutiny. In his victory speech, Orban called Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky one of the "opponents" he had to overcome during the campaign.

Hungary is heavily reliant on Russian energy and Orban has dodged opportunities to condemn Putin's assault on its neighboring state, complicating the EU's efforts to present a united front against him.

Salivate somewhere else, ghoul.

[Badger]

[quote author=Слава Україні! Героям слава! 🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦 link=topic=469771.msg8547108#msg8547108 date=1649080115 uid=32396]

As several posters above have said - it’s understandable to be absolutely enraged by this - I’d be more worried if you weren’t (*cough* compucomp). I’ll confess where there are some days I want NATO planes to fly over the border and destroy as much Russian equipment in UA as possible. But in the current world order, that’s just not an adult or acceptable move. Escalation is a dangerous game, and not one the West is willing to play with Putin.

I'll largely hold my tongue on this because if I don't I'm in danger of getting banned due to "genocide denial" or something like that, but I read the update on CNN and saw that there were "20 bodies of civilian men" found on the street in Bucha. There were probably around 20 people that got shot dead in Chicago yesterday.

I hope you will have fun dancing in Hell

Or have a thorn cocked badger as a boyfriend for all eternity. This is [inks]ed.
[/quote]

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

 He is  Rabid nationalist disguised as a Christian. Surely if Jesus's injunction against the wicked using his name in the furtherance of evil is true, then there's a special place in h*** for Kirill.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1510695804750766093

The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a tool used by those in power. Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but it represented an actual separate node of power throughout much of Western European Medieval history and thus could serve as a counterbalance against rulers who pushed their luck. The Orthodox Church is a glorified puppet institution.

 That's not entirely fair. As husband has been demonstrated by not only the vast number of orthodox churches breaking with the Moscow Patriarchate,  But  Russian orthodox churches throughout the world Condemning Russia's invasion, and even hundreds of brave clerics within russia itself, this is all not true.

Now the Russian orthodox church within Russia itself, especially those tied to its current patriarchcoma totes

[Badger]

Based Biden.

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1510996562394103808

I'm all for. once Bush faces them over Iraq.

I hate Bush as much as anyone but piss off with the false equivalence 🤬

[Badger]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

 I submit that by any objective standard that would be almost impossible not to occur at this point..

[Badger]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

 Great. Notify me when anything remotely close to that scenario is even vaguely in sight and then then I and others will give a s***..

[Badger]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

Yes, that is within the realm of possibility. Ukraine's getting loads of weapons, it has conscription while Russia doesn't, and the opinion of the average Russian in the minds of the average Ukrainian has declined immensely. The tide of the war is presently in Ukraine's favor and the Russians are even withdrawing from large swathes of Ukraine as we speak.
We cannot yet exclude the possibility of a Ukrainian nation intent on cold-blooded revenge and showing that through their actions. This war is still an unpredictable thing and we are likely seeing it go in new directions as of the moment I am typing this very post.

 Trying to  Even imply a both sides approach to this based on this far fetched scenario is frankly ridiculous.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1512113804074790916

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1512116881481740291

Lmao, great to see the worst members of both parties in agreement.

 Horseshoe theory in action.

[Badger]

Lol. Sanctions, what are they good for?
https://twitter.com/Rory_Johnston/status/1512415418086002698

 Sounds like a woodshed meeting with the Latvian ambassador is needed both in Washington and Brussels toot sweet.

[Badger]

To carry out their ever more bloodcurdling stated plans, Russia would at least have to occupy all of Ukraine - and for an actual genocide they would have to stay fully in control for decades.

How likely is this, exactly?

Or is it just more blowhard rhetoric mainly designed for impressionable outsiders.

 Impressionable insiders  I would think. That is, basically  Putin's "base" in Russia.

[Badger]

Based Boris!

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1512818337415372802?s=20&t=Fn1yKXh5R...

 Generally not a fan of bojo, but d***** if he hasn't been a true leader in Western Europe regarding supporting Ukraine.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1512906959980216323?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7C...

ugggg

It doesn't sound speaking Russian in the video. If he's speaking Chechen that's something I haven't seen in the war before. Also saying the Chechens need to leave Europe seems a bit...well Chechnya is in Europe last time I checked.

https://twitter.com/Noxcho99/status/1512938809108930567?s=20&t=3ifqQzYwqYyRP...

 The woman screaming Natasha is heard later in the video, but what do we think happened to Natasha after that gunshot?