Herb Kohl apparently retiring.

[Badger]

The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated.

[Badger]

The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated.

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.  

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 7 time Super Bowl Champs ) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".

[Badger]

and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs )

The Steelers have already won six Super Bowls.

D'OH!! I wasn't sure whether to write "current six time champs" or "soon to be seven time champs" and did neither. Correction forthwith, but thank you Phil for immortalizing a post that will forever undermine my cred in Steeler Nation.

[Badger]

The new law in Florida means they can't draw the Orlando area anymore without any Democratic districts. A new Democratic seat based in Orlando means ALAN GRAYSON can win. RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON RUSS FEINGOLD ALAN GRAYSON!

Please don't ever compare those two again...ever!  During his time in office, Feingold was one of the most independent-minded, ethical, and fearless members of Congress (not to mention, a progressive champion and a Democrat with a spine).  Alan Grayson is simply a Democratic version of Bachmann.  It's really a big insult to Feingold to compare him to Grayson.  Also, there is no reason to think Grayson will win Orlando's new Democratic seat (thankfully).

And that's a gross insult of Grayson to compare hyperbole over the GOP's lack of a substantive alternative health care plan and splicing a quote for campaign commercial excusing an extreme fundy social conservative of being an extreme social fundy conservative with "Ms. 1000 yard stare" herself.

But either way, I still say Grayson and Feingold are both overrated.

First off, Grayson's ad essentially accused Webster of being a misogynist and equated him with the Taliban (unless there is some legitimate basis for such a claim, which there wasn't, that's not okay period, as far as I'm concerned).  Grayson may not be quite as bad as Bachmann, but they are cut from the same cloth.  They are both examples of the polarization, smears, and demonization of those with differing viewpoints that has polluted American politics for the past decade (especially since Obama was elected).  I'll be the first to argue that the Republicans deserve something like 70-80% of the blame for this (and probably more during Obama's presidency), but the fact is that there are some extremists on my side too (though few, if any are as bad as the tea party).  The extremists that exist on my side (that is, those that are liberal Democrats) need to be called out too.  Alan Grayson and Michele Bachmann are both examples of the same problem, which is why all of the Grayson apologists who defend him while criticizing Bachmann can be so frustrating.   

Webster's voting record on social issues was extreme even by southern standards. There's little more misogynistic than proposing a "covenant marriage" as Webster did that would essentially eliminate almost every legal grounds for marriage including domestic violence. The fact that such a marriage could only be entered into "voluntarily" so it might only apply to women pressured by their families or fiances (abusers tend to be emotionally dominating types demanding absolute compliance with their wishes) is hardly any comfort or excuse to any legislator who thinks that having your husband kicking your teeth out isn't sufficient grounds "in the eyes of God" for the sin of divorce.

No, Webster isn't literally about to go to Kandahar and fire RPG's at US forces, but his social views such as his proposed law above, and many like it, are reminiscent of Taliban style Sharia law. The fact he bases it on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible instead of the Koran shouldn't matter if the end result is the same.

Again, I'm not defending Grayson overall--he's vastly overrated and couldn't control his rhetoric. But I balk heavily at saying just because Grayson is arguably "the worst" among Democrats for irresponsible statements, and Bachmann is (among) the worst for Republicans saying stupid crazy things they believe, somehow means they're both "equal". And, while you're not falling for it, I'm tired of too many people taking the intellectually lazy way out of saying "they're all just as bad as the other". That's like saying the Seahawks (7-9) and the Steelers (soon to be 6 time Super Bowl Champs ) are comparably good team because they both finished first in their division.

The end result being that everytime Beck says something utterly insane on his show, or Louis Gohmert or Bachmann, or one of a hundred other nuts on that side of the aisle says something cringingly stupid and off the wall, no matter how bad it is liberal commentators and congressmembers suffer just as bad as conservatives because of the constant refrain "Their all just the same. They're all just as bad".

I'm not saying Webster doesn't hold some extremist views, but I do think that Grayson's ad crossed the line (specifically by equating his opponent with the Taliban, that sort of stuff doesn't belong in political discourse).  Grayson could've run an ad about what Webster actually said, the Taliban comparison was wrong, period.  It wasn't wrong because Webster's Christian and the Taliban are Muslim, it was wrong because they're is a terrorist organization that has tortured and murdered people and Webster is a right-wing Congressman with some extreme views (it's an insult to the victims of the Taliban to compare the two).  For the record, I do believe that Bachmann is worse than Grayson, but that is beside the point.  The point is that this stuff isn't okay no matter who does it and it's not a defense to say that the other side is worse, even though that's true (I know you weren't saying that was an excuse).  Another problem I have with the ad is that Grayson's campaign edited Webster's statements mid-sentance in the ad so that it looked like Webster was saying something he wasn't saying.  Btw, I  agreed with what you said about how frustrating the intellectually lazy responses are

I actually 90% agree with everything you wrote. My point isn't that Bachmann, or Gohmert, or Beck, or  DeMint, or Limbaugh, or Palin, or King, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. makes Grayson crossing the line okay. My point is we need to distinguish between a congressman who went over the line in an ad and engaged in a bit of hyperbole on the House floor to mock the utter paucity of the GOP's joke of a health reform "plan", with a congresswomen--plus many other prominent other of her rabid right wing colleagues--who have made countless statements of their beliefs that push them past mere extremely conservative or "provaocative" to outright bats#it insane.

Nichlmen's comment above that much of perception as to who is more crazy and extreme depends on which side of the political fence one is is aaccurate re: the way most way most detaatched voters watching the news out of the cormer of their eye see things, but dead wrong in terms of whether its actually accurate. This is more than an issue of semantics: The more prominaent and powerful nutcakes on the right display the bizzaroworld that is their thought process, the more even the most reasonable and rational outspoken advocates on the left (of which I do not incluide Grayson) get labeled as merely equally crazy and extreme counterparts to borderline mental cases like Bachmann, Beck, Gohmert and Beck. That's all I'm saying. [/threadjack]