Opinion of the Amish? Should they be forced to integrate?

[Antonio the Sixth]

FF, should obviously be allowed to keep their culture (normal) but shouldn't be exempt from schooling requirements.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not exempting them from schooling requirements means in practical effect forcing them to integrate and change their culture.

Would two more years of schooling really have such a devastating cultural impact? I'm sorry but I have a hard time seeing it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Not exempting them from schooling requirements means in practical effect forcing them to integrate and change their culture.

Would two more years of schooling really have such a devastating cultural impact? I'm sorry but I have a hard time seeing it.

What would the point of that be, unless they are required to administer standardized tests and follow the same curricula as public schools?

I think standardized tests are horrible and would probably significantly reform public school curricula if I had a chance, but otherwise yes, all children should be taught the same basic things regardless of where they are from. People who are afraid this will lead to a loss of culture underestimate the role of parents in socialization.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have no idea how the Amish way of life would be possible if we forced their children through the extended rigamarole that most of us must complete.

Why? Would spending 20 hours a week over a combined 18 months at school really compromise the Amish upbringing that severely? I mean, I'm sure they have children do something from 16 to 18, but is that really such a vital cornerstone of their culture that some kind of accommodation can be found? They can very well run their own schools and teach their children there, as far as I'm concerned, as long as they conform to a minimal standard of learning objectives. Sure, cultures are important, but MUH CULTURE can't be the ultimate trump card to opt out of every civic obligation.

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Again, I know the school system is in a dire state and I'd be the first to support a complete overhaul. That doesn't invalidate the general principle of a comprehensive education.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Two of the most important and fundamental goals of a political community are 1. to socialize all its members in a sense of shared destiny and mutual trust, regardless of their background, and 2. to provide all its members with the material and intellectual means to exercise meaningful control over their lives. I happen to believe that a complete education curriculum is fundamental to both these goals.

I assure you that I'm sympathetic to people's desires to maintain a cohesive culture, and I think the State should do its best to accommodate those desires, consonant with these goals. However, again, MUH CULTURE can't be the justification for every deviation from the common norm. Claiming otherwise means refusing the basic premise of living in a shared society, and is also a clear slippery slope toward moral relativism.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Antonio, one point of contention with your take is that in most ways the Amish do reject the basic premise of living in a shared society. They don't vote, they don't serve on juries, they aren't drafted, and they don't buy health insurance. They depend on non-Amish institutions in a lot of ways, and they do business with outsiders, but their way of life requires separation.

Amish adults are free to make that choice, and the wider community should accept it (even if it would be a major problem if a large share of the population adopted this attitude, and as such it can only be tolerated up to a point). Children, however, are not their parents' property, and they should at least be put in the condition to develop closer ties with people outside their in-group if they are so inclined. I don't doubt that most of them would still chose to stay in their parents' community, but this substrate of wider socialization could only help.

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Fair enough. I'll admit that learning more about the US education system makes me doubt that two more years into it would achieve much. I do believe in the importance of affirming abstract principles even when they can't be carried out very well in practice, though.