charlie hebdo continues to be pure garbage, now without the "muh satire" charade

[Antonio the Sixth]

Reading that makes me realize my perspective has changed quite a bit over the past few years. I was a huge fan of Charlie Hebdo around 2008-2010.

I still think there's a valid and important point buried beneath the crass language and stereotyping,  but these people are smart and should know better.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I seriously can't comprehend how this article is offensive. I guess we just have reached a point where anything less than "Muslims are peacefully wonderful people" is considered hate speech.

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

I'm saying this as someone who still has a lot of respect for Charlie Hebdo and the place it occupies in the French cultural discourse. I think they raise a valid concern about a tendency of intellectuals toward self-censorship on religious matters. I just wish they could raise it in a more intellectually rigorous way.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I seriously can't comprehend how this article is offensive. I guess we just have reached a point where anything less than "Muslims are peacefully wonderful people" is considered hate speech.

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

I'm saying this as someone who still has a lot of respect for Charlie Hebdo and the place it occupies in the French cultural discourse. I think they raise a valid concern about a tendency of intellectuals toward self-censorship on religious matters. I just wish they could raise it in a more intellectually rigorous way.

Why is it that the people who usually make that argument have  seriously problem if you replace the word Muslim with Christian?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Charlie Hebdo has been very hard on the Catholic Church as well. In fact I'm pretty sure a majority of their religion-themed cartoons are still about it.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I seriously can't comprehend how this article is offensive. I guess we just have reached a point where anything less than "Muslims are peacefully wonderful people" is considered hate speech.

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

I'm saying this as someone who still has a lot of respect for Charlie Hebdo and the place it occupies in the French cultural discourse. I think they raise a valid concern about a tendency of intellectuals toward self-censorship on religious matters. I just wish they could raise it in a more intellectually rigorous way.

Why is it that the people who usually make that argument have  seriously problem if you replace the word Muslim with Christian?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Charlie Hebdo has been very hard on the Catholic Church as well. In fact I'm pretty sure a majority of their religion-themed cartoons are still about it.

There is nothing "intellectually rigorous" about Charlie Hedbo though.

That was my point.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

[Antonio the Sixth]

(and not just terrorism, but really most crime)

There's no actual evidence of this AFAIK.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There's still no way to know if that holds when you control for socioeconomic background and a whole slew of demographic variables.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Is anyone actually interested in arguing in this thread?

Why would anybody be interested in that discussion? We all know what the other side think and feel and we all know what we think about the other side (racists and halal hippies) . So why shouldn't we all just show the flag and continue on with our lives.

OK then. Guess I'm the only one left who's actually interested in figuring out how to build or preserve an authentically secular culture without scapegoating an entire group of people in the process.

There is no way to build a secular culture without calling out people who oppose secularism. People who are not secular are not scapegoats in this situation. "Scapegoat" implies they are not really to blame. People who are not secular are indeed the ones to blame for their own not being secular.

A secular culture does not require everyone in society to be secular. By that standard, early 20th century France certainly wouldn't have been called "secular". In fact, a secular society could theoretically function even if everyone in it was deeply religious. The idea that Muslims are threatening it simply by practicing their faith in their personal lives is utterly ludicrous.


Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Derpist, everyone agrees that Europe has done a terrible job integrating the recent waves of immigrants. If you're looking for reasons, try systematic racism, urban segregation, and the retrenchment of the Welfare State. The solution is to fix those problems, not to close our borders, cover our ears and pretend the outside world doesn't exist.

Maybe, but even if this is true, shouldn't you fix those problems first?  Just to make sure you can.  I suppose you can always just recycle this excuse in 20 years.  Doesn't seem like a fun loop to be in to me.

It's not like immigration is a switch we can just turn on and off. There are actual human beings involved, and closing our borders, aside from just being unworkable, would consequences just as awful as botched integration policies.

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The unfortunate part is that I'm an immigrant who's not Muslim, so the Western Europeans obviously didn't let us in.

Where are you from? Did you actually apply for immigration to any Western European country?

Anyway, the connection between multiculturalism and inequality is dubious at best. One of the reasons immigrants came to the US in the first place is because they had more opportunities to improve their living conditions there than almost anywhere else in the world. And even if there is a connection, it doesn't work quite the way you claim: it's mainly because parties like the one in your avatar exploit xenophobic fear and resentment as an excuse to enact policies that screw over the poor.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Enjoy the ride then.  Or are you planning on staying here now that you've seen how much better it is

I'm not sure what your point is, but the US being a nation of immigrants and embracing multiculturalism is one of the best things about it and one of the reasons I could see myself staying here for a long time.

It was just a joke, hence the winky face there.  It is true that America is awesome though.  Have you tried our sliced cheese?  It's to die for.


(that's a joke too)

That might as well have been serious: I'm addicted to cheese in all its forms.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's offensive because it relies heavily on stereotypes and seems to imply that Muslims who are just serious about practicing their faith are somehow a problem.

Well, they kind of are, seeing as devout Muslims don't exactly think a secular state has any right to tell them how to live their lives.

A secular State isn't supposed to tell people how to practice religion in their personal lives.