Vatican City 2013 papal election

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, did I ever tell you guys that USF is a Jesuit school? Some people here must be celebrating these days.

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, did I ever tell you guys that USF is a Jesuit school? Some people here must be celebrating these days.

Jesuits, in the gay, liberal, atheist SF?
Impossible.

Yup, and none of these group as any issue with another. Progressive Catholics are awesome, and I know what I'm talking about, since all my family is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, USF apparently was quite conservative back in the 60s... But in a city like modern day San Francisco, it's impossible not to be contaminated by the overwhelming feeling of tolerance and open-mindedness that emanates from the whole city.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It'dll be a massive surprise if the new Pope is from the US, it'll be a huge shock if it's Dolan.

It seems like the next Pope needs to tick five boxes:

1. Conservative, but not reactionary. They ought to be able to see the grey, but advocate the white and confront the black, so to speak. Someone with deep beliefs in line with the conservative wing of the church, but not unthinkingly. Ideally, not taintyed by scandal based on not communicating these views well, but certainly someone who has conservative views and is prepared to express them, and does so in a way that is both clear and not offensively harsh.

I think Francis gets a yes to this.

He is slightly 'tainted by scandal based on not communicating these views well' (at the time of the Equal Marriage Act in 2010), but he and the Argentinian Church seem to have learned from how poorly that went.

I feel like a Catholic cleric in South America could have said much worse things than "gay marriage is the devil's work". At least he did not say anything directly offensive toward homosexuals.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, this is really unsettling. I can understand being too quiet and not helping these priests as much as he should have - it is normal human weakness under dictatorships of this kind - but if he actively worked with the junta and spread rumors behind their backs, there is not justification to this. He might be genuinely repentant for that, and do many good things to redeem himself, but my opinion of him has dropped considerably.

I really hope new evidence will refute these allegations. But it seems unlikely at this point.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

I'd heard the latter accusations before, too, but actual corroboration of this kind is, obviously, unpleasant to say the least. In any case it's appearing increasingly likely that 1970s-vintage Bergoglio, at least, was what my aunt would call a 'real piece of work', whatever this may mean for Francis now (and I hope for the sake of the Church and the world that the answer to that is 'not much').

Indeed. If these allegations are true, judgment on his person can only be irremediably tarnished. But hopefully this might not necessarily prevent him from being a good Pope. Still a very sad thing.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Definitely. It would be terrible, for all actors involved, to leave the issue to doubts and speculations throughout his papacy. It would be mildly comforting to see him, if the accusations are true, finally confess and and ask for forgiveness. That would be a powerful sign, and send a clear message to the Church as a whole with regard to several other issues (from pedophilia to the bank's management). If we see a pope unable to admit his past guilts, he will have little credibility to spur the rest of the Church to do so.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Edu, thank you so much for taking the time to write that post and explain things to us with your firsthand knowledge. I must say it's quite heartwarming for me to realize that these accusations are not nearly as credible as I thought they were initially. I really, really want to believe in Francis' innocence in all this (it seems clear that his attitude during the dictatorship was cautious as well, but nobody can blame him for that).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Being endorsed by Bertone is certainly not a good sign... However, the fact that his major opponents were Scola and Ouellet are still huge reasons to be happy about his election.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Being endorsed by Bertone is certainly not a good sign... However, the fact that his major opponents were Scola and Ouellet are still huge reasons to be happy about his election.

I think I heard before the conclave that Scola and Bertone have a rivalry such that, whoever the anti-Scola was going to be, he was probably going to get endorsed by Bertone at some point. I'm waiting to see if Francis retains Bertone in his capacity as Cardinal Secretary of State.

When will we know this, BTW?

That decision will probably be the litmus test of Francis' papacy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

By the way, I don't really know what Al thinks of this, but the last couple of pages aren't really about the election, so I suppose we should move to the International discussion subforum. I defer the decision to more experienced posters and the moderator of course.

Aren't the most recent posts speculations on how the vote went and why the cardinals voted the way they did? That seems to fit the board rather well.

Of course there is bound to be discussions that exceed the strict frame of the election, but calling them off-topic is a bit of a stretch.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Reminds me of...