Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm glad that for once we share the same feelings, Franzl.

Germany almost always acts like this. Must be in most Germans' blood, I imagine.

Yeah, seems that "learning lessons from history" always has to translate into silly foreign policies.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also for the record, in Italy everyone supports the operation except the Northern League. But the problem is that the Northern League can let this government fall whenever they want, so that explains why Italy is playing the part of the buffoon in this operation.

[Antonio the Sixth]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

Military intervention for 'humanitarian' reasons is 1) pure propaganda, just a story to cover real reasons, and 2) in any case cultural imperialism.

For whatever reason I thought you would find something more creative to say rather than such a stupid, lame, overused talking point.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So after barely two days of operations the allies are already starting to fight over what to do. That's so pathetic... The rebels have so far failed to retake any city, and it's hard to see how they can. And meanwhile, everyone acts outraged because "OMG, the coalition is bombing Gaddafi's forces and not just doing a no-fly zone ! Ccandal !!". Gaddafi must be kicked out unless we want a permanent civil war lasting for the next decade, new slaughters, new oppression, and a ridiculized western diplomacy. If it requires bombing Gaddafi's forces, it must be done. If it requires a terrestrial intervention, it must be done too. Any other attitude would be delusion.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It seems that we are headed to a long status quo if the west maintains this position...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Let me repeat that : we can't let things last that way for decades.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Let me repeat that : we can't let things last that way for decades.

Cute, but I'm not sure permanently saying things go bad because you don't see it ruled within 24 hours actually help. Hell, such things take time. We are not acting for ourselves, if your impatience means you want troops, then such a demand has to come from rebels. That this is not our war.

My impatience means that a permanent civil war is the worst possible scenario for Libya. I don't know what should be done, but I know that, while preventing Gaddafi from slaughtering the rebels is a very good thing, it's no longer sufficient.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Perhaps I missed it, but why are the French, of all the nations participating, so jumpin ugly about blowing Gaddafi to smithereens?

It's very indelicate, very un-French-like.

Which proves you don't know a sh*t about Frenchs.

Not that I know it very well myself, but maybe the main reasons are :
- "We-are-the-human-rights-nation" mentality, which is very radicated in the country. Whether France has ever been the human rights nation is of course debatable. But the point is that there is something in the French mentalities that tends to believe that, every time there's something bad in the world, France should just fix it. Or at least that the role of French diplomacy is to serve the interests of oppressed people worldwide. That's why a huge majority of French support the intervention (even though things could change).
- A political motivation associated to this mentality : Sarkozy is always accused (rightfully) to have ridiculed the French diplomacy with totally cynical and tasteless moves (like Gaddafi's reception at the beginning of his term, or his close ties to Ben Ali, or his praises to Putin). So this was a perfect occasion for him to rebuild some morality. Of course that doesn't mean the French involvement was merely cynical, but it certainly played a role, if not in the decision, at least in the amound of energy France has spend to convince other countries.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I just see Antonio's post, well, I'm not sure French are very interventionist actually, we have a universalistic mentality, but I'm not sure people are very pushy to see it transformed in international political acts generally. The journalist class would be more interventionist than the people.

Well, the journalists make the opinion of the other people.

Seriously though, I think most french people would prefer a diplomacy based on human rights, at least moreso than Sarkozy's diplomacy has been in past years. Whether this translates in interventionism or not depends on how things are presented. If people see Gaddafi killing thousands of people and have the impression that we could do something to stop him, they will support intervention easily IMO. Of course, if it is presented as an "American imperialist crusade" like Irak (a label which has since, unfairly, been associated with Afghanistan), it will be totally different...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Great ! I know it's something absolutely silly, stupid and meaningless to say, but momentum is back on the rebels' side.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ras Lanuf and Ben Jawad both fell in the same day.

[Antonio the Sixth]

There's a difference between trying to stop Gaddafi from massacring Bengazi and helping the rebels (or, according to Mr. Sarkozy, "peaceful protestors" ) conquering areas, like Sitra, where Gaddafi is actually popular and where the people don't want them.

Coallition is basically taking a side in a civil war. Big mistake and stupidity.

The goal has never been to merely protect civilians. We want rebels to win and we want Gaddafi to lose, because this is what the Libyan people wants. And we are ready to help ensuring this happens since we can. I don't see what's wrong with that.

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I'm easily exempted of this attack. My President is a retarded nutjob who has done only inanities since he is in power, and who would certainly have supported Bush's silly war. Yet he has done the right thing (and the reasons why he did are irrelevant).

[Antonio the Sixth]

I was the 16000th reader of this topic.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I can't help but think that the current strategy in Libya will only lead to a prolonged status quo and ultimately more bloodshed. If the coalition backed the opposition fully or just tried to decapitate the leadership, I think this might be over sooner. (o/c this violates international laws). Right now there are a whole lot of war crimes going on from both sides and people with little to gain being the victims.

Exactly this.

[Antonio the Sixth]

"Pacifist" demonstration a couple of days ago in Italy. Really depressing.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Intervening in Libya was a big mistake, but I think it's way too simplistic to just pin all the blame on Obama. Most of the impetus for this mission came from Europe, which reading the posts on this forum also makes clear. Of course Obama should have pulled a Chirac and told France and UK to go it alone. 

Of course, why would we bother saving all those lives if it takes so much time and make us waste so much money ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but it doesn't appear to me that mass killings and violence have stopped when the no-fly zone was put into effect.

Nobody was expecting a miracle, you know ? Now just imagine what would have happened in Benghazi if we had let Gaggafi's troups enter in the city and "purify" it. We prevented the worse from happening, and that's already a great thing.

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The Arab people mistrusts westerners for obvious (and mostly justified) reasons. Whatever we would have done, they would likely disapprove of us nonetheless. Now if we start building a new relationship with these people, based on respect, solidarity and freedom, their opinion will probably start evolving. What we are doing in Libya can be a first step : the people of Benghazi has already expressed its gratitude toward us.

Hmm...why didn't the west get involved in Sudan or countless different places around the world? What's so special about Libya. People around the world can put 2 and 2 together you know.

Yeah, of course everything the west does is only for oil, right ? What a lame talking point.

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Except that you can't. The conditional mode will maybe reassure your conscience, but not prevent people from being killed. Instead of showing good intentions, let's try to do what we can to improve things.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Antonio,

This war is about oil and it's not a lame talking point, just reality. The world wants libyas oil to keep flowing so they were much more likely to intervene here. You, as an individual might have wanted action in Darfur and other places, but the reason governments didn't do anything there and are all gung ho about Libya is due to oil. That's what I am trying to get at and also pointing out that the motivations of the governments are what people around the world will see.

*facepalm*

It's really sad to hear this kind of kind of arguments from you, after having been surrounded for years by bigoted "pacifists" and "anti-imperialists" in my country.

For your information, oil trade with Libya was going extremely well under Gaddafi. And not only oil, countries like France had important economic partnerships with Libya. Not to forget that Gaddafi was blocking emigrants for us. Basically, Europeans had every possible reason not to support Gaddafi and to hope he would resist. As for the rebels, a lot of westerners still feared "bearded men" as Opebo would say. There is no economical reason that would have led to western intervention. Not even one.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Regardless I am against intervention in basically every case so it's not hard for me to not support this adventure. Is the concept that a country should mind it's own business and protect it's own borders really such a radical one? Then in that case I'm a proud radical.

Radical or not, it's an idea that makes me sick. When you see a govermnent slaughtering its own people, when you see massacres committed, "doing our own business" and not doing anything to stop it is untolerable. I couldn't care less about "national sovereignty" and all this bullsh*t. Human life and liberty come before all.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I fail to see how the past is of any relevance. There are atrocities going on now, and whoever has the power to stop them must do so.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I fail to see how the past is of any relevance. There are atrocities going on now, and whoever has the power to stop them must do so.

Atrocities are going on all over the world.......and always will.

And this would be an excuse for not caring about them ?

Come on, just admit it : you position is morally bankrupt.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I fail to see how the past is of any relevance. There are atrocities going on now, and whoever has the power to stop them must do so.

Atrocities are going on all over the world.......and always will.

And this would be an excuse for not caring about them ?

Come on, just admit it : you position is morally bankrupt.

Your position of intervening on the side of rebels, of which little is known and may be worse than Qadhafi and bombing a sovereign country in the process (probably killing many civilians, which is what the intervention was supposed to prevent), is also morally suspect.

If you seriously argue that not interventing would have led to less civilians dying, then you're either very naive or very dishonest.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Splendid, we have three dead kids, it seems.

Very bad PR.

No, no, they were evil Gaddafis, right?  They were 'killing civilians', right?

This intervention is another in a long list of travesties on the part of the imperialists.  I'm sure the Libyans well understand the sacrifice the Gadaffi family is making for their freedom.  Even if the effort is quixotic, it is a fight for freedom.

Huhahahuhahaha, good one !

[Antonio the Sixth]

...and the imperialist West is, of course, allied with anti-imperialist Al Quaeda. Makes perfect sense.

[Antonio the Sixth]

LOL, better late than never...

Not a fan of French diplomacy, but we recognized it even before UNO's resolution.