Pro-Jesus Jews paid Rick Santorum

[pbrower2a]

Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.

[pbrower2a]

I agree that Jews For Jesus are not actual Jews and a somewhat shady group, though ultimately harmless. My real issue is that the type of people that is being speculated this would hurt Santorum of wouldn't respond much better to simple "normal" conversions to Christianity. Someone born in Borough Park who ignored the "Messianic Judaism" nonsense and just became a Presbyterian or Catholic or evangelical or whatever likely would still be ostracized by that community. The idea of "hereditary religion" REALLY offends me, this is kind of a personal issue that hits close to home so I shouldn't go into the details, let me just say it's largely affected by the (admittedly more mild but still there) attitudes in some Catholic communities (not all or even most Catholics fall into this I'll admit, including the ones from my family, but hearing about the attitudes some take like that woman in the hospital who dealt with Nathan's Buddhist relative often quite hits a nerve.) But this isn't the place for that.

And as not even being a Republican it's really none of my business and how it'd affect my vote doesn't matter, sure. And yeah they have the right to think that way, just as people have the right to vote against anyone for being Jewish or vote against Obama for being black. My point is more that people who adhere to this type of thinking are more morally repugnant than Santorum, and that's saying A LOT.

BRTD, your own experience, such as it is, is kind of a ridiculous comparison.  Throughout its history, Judaism and the Jewish people have been pushed to extinction.

1) It is highly ironic that many of those whom bitch and moan about the "extinction" of "Judaism" are themselves folks whom have personally abandoned Judaism for atheism. Seems there are doing their part for the extinction of the religion.

2) I thought the goal atheism included the "extinction" of Judaism. As one of the religions with a minimal number of adherents, presumably, it would be one of the first to die. Is the drive for atheism suppose to exclude Judaism?

3) Rhetoric that equates "assimiliation" with "extinction" is hyperbolic and wrong. Genetically, twenty million people 1/4 Askenazi, or 5 million pure-blood Askenazis constitute the exact same share of the gene pool.

1. Such people are sentimental about "Jewish culture" but ignore the religious reality that underpins all "Jewish cultures".

2. Does Judaism have anything to offer the rest of humanity? It's about the most benign of current religious traditions. I suspect that the theology is simpler and thus allows more emphasis on ethics than upon divisive debates.    

3. Consider that the non-Jewish spouse in an interfaith marriage has some chance of converting to Judaism. This is especially likely if both spouses begin with favorable views of Judaism.  Judaism is not as based on ethnicity as it was when Jews were endogamous groups in ghettos and shtetls.

[pbrower2a]

I agree that Jews For Jesus are not actual Jews and a somewhat shady group, though ultimately harmless. My real issue is that the type of people that is being speculated this would hurt Santorum of wouldn't respond much better to simple "normal" conversions to Christianity. Someone born in Borough Park who ignored the "Messianic Judaism" nonsense and just became a Presbyterian or Catholic or evangelical or whatever likely would still be ostracized by that community. The idea of "hereditary religion" REALLY offends me, this is kind of a personal issue that hits close to home so I shouldn't go into the details, let me just say it's largely affected by the (admittedly more mild but still there) attitudes in some Catholic communities (not all or even most Catholics fall into this I'll admit, including the ones from my family, but hearing about the attitudes some take like that woman in the hospital who dealt with Nathan's Buddhist relative often quite hits a nerve.) But this isn't the place for that.

And as not even being a Republican it's really none of my business and how it'd affect my vote doesn't matter, sure. And yeah they have the right to think that way, just as people have the right to vote against anyone for being Jewish or vote against Obama for being black. My point is more that people who adhere to this type of thinking are more morally repugnant than Santorum, and that's saying A LOT.

BRTD, your own experience, such as it is, is kind of a ridiculous comparison.  Throughout its history, Judaism and the Jewish people have been pushed to extinction.

1) It is highly ironic that many of those whom bitch and moan about the "extinction" of "Judaism" are themselves folks whom have personally abandoned Judaism for atheism. Seems there are doing their part for the extinction of the religion.

2) I thought the goal atheism included the "extinction" of Judaism. As one of the religions with a minimal number of adherents, presumably, it would be one of the first to die. Is the drive for atheism suppose to exclude Judaism?

3) Rhetoric that equates "assimilation" with "extinction" is hyperbolic and wrong. Genetically, twenty million people 1/4 Askenazi, or 5 million pure-blood Askenazis constitute the exact same share of the gene pool.

1. Such people are sentimental about "Jewish culture" but ignore the religious reality that underpins all "Jewish cultures".

2. Does Judaism have anything to offer the rest of humanity? It's about the most benign of current religious traditions. I suspect that the theology is simpler and thus allows more emphasis on ethics than upon divisive debates.    

3. Consider that the non-Jewish spouse in an interfaith marriage has some chance of converting to Judaism. This is especially likely if both spouses begin with favorable views of Judaism.  Judaism is not as based on ethnicity as it was when Jews were endogamous groups in ghettos and shtetls.

1) So I take it that you are an honest to goodness Jewish theist?

2) Do Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and the other smaller religions "offer" anything to mankind? That is an interesting question. Perhaps they do. But, I have yet to meet an atheist whom thinks it important that folks other than himself practise any of these religions. Certainly, few here seem to think Rick Santorum's Catholism means he has some special wisdom to offer mankind.

Those that believe that "religion is the opiate of the masses" would, presumably, answer that Judaism is the opiate of the Jewish masses.

3) Claiming Jewishness is not tied to race is an opinion that would put you well outside the mainstream of "Jewish" thinking.

1. I'm not Jewish. I have had some nasty encounters with bigots who thought that I was. A German-American is almost certain to experience that unless he affiliates with the most demonic cause to have ever existed. Nothing makes Judaism and Jewish cultures look better to me than does anti-Jewish bigotry. I consider Jewish influence upon American political, economic, scientific, and cultural life an enrichment.

Christianity needs Judaism to keep it alert to an ethical debate more than two millennial old worthy of participation. Without attention to the Jewish part of the Christian heritage, Christian theological debates tend to devolve to "How many angels can dance upon the head of a pin?"

But what the heck? I never could quite understand what the Holy Ghost is, anyway.  

2. See above. In view of Jewish cultural achievements and in Jewish participation in labor, feminist, and minority-rights movements (Jewish participation in the civil-rights struggle of the 1960s was out of proportion to their numbers to a greater extent than any identifiable group except for African-Americans) Judaism is a positive force for humanity.

3. Although conversion to Judaism is difficult, a convert to Judaism needs have no tie to any Jewish ethnic group before then. After conversion, Judaism without ties to a Jewish community is about as absurd as being a penguin in the middle of the Sahara.   Judaism does not proselytize; Jewish thought seems to hold that a gentile with a strong moral compass is far preferable to a flawed Jew. As I understand it the Jewish view of the Afterlife is that the moral gentile will enjoy the great bliss of a Jewish Heaven -- after a quicker, easier, and inevitable conversion to Judaism.

If there were any religion that I wish were right for the good of Humanity it would be Judaism! Imagine that a Hindu policeman is killed in the terrorist attack on Mumbai having given his life in a way that saves Christians and Muslims in the knowledge that he does so. As a non-Muslim would his heroism get him to the Muslim paradise? Not from what I understand.    The Christian paradise? That depends upon the theology of the Christian denomination. The Jewish paradise? Having been a Hindu would be no bar.  

..."Jews for Jesus" gets much criticism from Christian organizations for theological fraudulence. Most Christians who know about the group recognize the group as a sham.